From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6CgyCMR622OwkQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 09:56:36 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id oEIGCMR622OpWwAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 09:56:36 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCDD620680 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:56:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNVNf-0007Ls-RP; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 03:55:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNVNd-0007Ji-UC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 03:55:42 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNVNb-00020R-EP for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Feb 2023 03:55:41 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D2192406F5 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:55:33 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675328136; bh=qo3C5yjZAaj4w26VoR4Dy2AMwuTFbhzflP1/enUXEzI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=myUbbVoLx3zKrnoD7ynElDnylwriqGDkkSTyJqT1qJlZNISn1NUlSZWxWAUb2zr2c g8tcI5M00cExD2QX9x5gRJNLdQplILnQUZSJiTrM+1BEMJ91+i72g6sVvSXSc7T42O /GvyJ6lpTR4Ff5ebjQZZM1kDBEuToqBUG+uOlHfwJ1xwlPSJmZOjoCkDcKClxr+h9h 4bgARduWdxyRm1tpG3t37Drv7qcDED7JRt4ubI2OsLhAu1LRh4Sj3sj5cXG8+LMqyp txe55eq7zjydFJjkJm2s3pHvJ28tIU5fg0S8K6HvZNQUtQQJG/t9EgEuNaMY2Tf1NT 9mxDujq7NPt5Q== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P6t0f2vKWz6tnq; Thu, 2 Feb 2023 09:55:30 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Heinz Tuechler Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info In-Reply-To: <5dbbab8f-bec8-9272-2a07-b8e484b93c85@gmx.at> References: <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <87r0v9sio1.fsf@christianmoe.com> <87edr9lgq6.fsf@localhost> <87o7qdsf7h.fsf@christianmoe.com> <87v8kljz3n.fsf@localhost> <5dbbab8f-bec8-9272-2a07-b8e484b93c85@gmx.at> Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2023 08:56:07 +0000 Message-ID: <87bkmcqwd4.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675328195; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=iSXCthm7CmwU+oi3aA1O+OoMqU5JMqkNUAvAHxLIj11AI4W5eIrFUw+tHSsXsjB+aFvhGu yfMM1qxwSSGt24jpeU0XfZFKRbuPM8A0UM4RQvm9gXWcIxIWMyN64FUiNSU+oJPT9zcuPV KMT//9657PdDnDuViVG1zzxJHnQcJuGjQUwZliGEzluqvH4K+wQSH+7iBit/jfSnPlJ4Ww CLFfcBIGdOAXaQ6/oDRpW13NDRT4zaKNaK+24KTXFuMfc+2/PYpwdZsrkHpcD3RrBQ08MC kLBhH1bRzOafZK1SawhN9kP5RlI18JXsjX6nKbMrvLEJ0ASe4nirtchGA9qA4g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=myUbbVoL; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675328195; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=5AdyRvjMeHcICGXy6Y5CLSrv73IkJdXXjHjTXUQWAAU=; b=TgTQmLVsEvYVESVnVVK3rX92NsoRKeU4p6ipKX4uD0LxCoJJaWrMVnmW5qovDsK/TqD97/ xx1UsNysuVeGyRBRw/iDMD5CWtfN+Eqkv4BqEA1GbB+DxtCx3n6aNXACsLYXk9sitgOCle fEQegaPkym5aEO/Oc5KcljwCqTgMetH1cliobHrdQkqTZ702BlezqKfq6Rq0UtYPu8+PtQ fzhG26X5x/uHqDmV8RUe7H6HqssfIn94ol9WPalsgklbpa6nRwt6d0YN8TPbTgKhAJrEdI Cnju7H3L5q7ITN2dmSYQm/8kIdcopt6qjuyqLFTB5fGG1mDz5C7aX38ZwFDenw== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.55 X-Spam-Score: -4.55 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BCDD620680 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=myUbbVoL; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net X-TUID: 4erfaakivuX4 Heinz Tuechler writes: > Same for me, I usually see ISO offset. Further, I am used to exchange > time designations (CET, EST, PDT,...) instead of [continent/city] > timezone names. While I see a push towards using time zone abbreviations, we should not make them a part of the syntax. If we take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_zone_abbrev= iations it states: Time zones are often represented by alphabetic abbreviations such as "EST", "WST", and "CST", but these are not part of the international time and date standard ISO 8601 and their use as sole designator for a time zone is discouraged. Such designations can be ambiguous; for example, "CST" can mean China Standard Time (UTC+8), Cuba Standard Time (UTC=E2=88=925), and (North American) Central Standard Time (UTC= =E2=88=926), and it is also a widely used variant of ACST (Australian Central Standard Time, UTC+9:30). Such designations predate both ISO 8601 and the internet era; in an earlier era, they were sufficiently unambiguous for many practical uses within a national context (for example, in railway timetables and business correspondence), but their ambiguity explains their deprecation in the internet era, when communications more often cannot rely on implicit geographic context to supply part of the meaning. The best we can do is supply a completion dialogue and using TZ POSIX format that is able to understand "SOMERANDOMZONENAME+07" disregarding the unknown zone and only using the offset. > ...My impression is that many of non experts like me don't > know in which time zone they are living. Is it trivial to find the > [continent/city] timezone name to a specific place? If you don't need to worry about time zones than honestly you probably don't need time zones in your timestamps. And at least you know the UTC offset, don't you? Time zone abbreviation will gain you nothing if you know UTC offset because time zone abbreviations don't code information about the daylight savings and the likes. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at