From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: d@teklibre.org (Dave =?utf-8?Q?T=C3=A4ht?=) Subject: Re: Emacs 21.4.1 support Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 19:10:24 -0600 Message-ID: <878wghf1xb.fsf@mahal.sjds.teklibre.org> References: <4AAE814C.500@gmail.com> <87r5u9fj2u.fsf@mahal.sjds.teklibre.org> <20090914201516.GQ9795@newton.linlan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MnMZk-0006s5-Qu for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:11:20 -0400 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MnMZf-0006qW-NH for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:11:20 -0400 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=51109 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MnMZf-0006qT-I8 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:11:15 -0400 Received: from toutatis.isc.org ([149.20.54.64]:41238 helo=mainmail.teklibre.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MnMZe-0006h9-Vf for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:11:15 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mainmail.teklibre.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE1C12B794 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mainmail.teklibre.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (toutatis.sql1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7vaRNjTcIeE0 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.teklibre.org (mail3.teklibre.org [IPv6:2001:470:b9d7::31]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail3.teklibre.org", Issuer "CA Cert Signing Authority" (verified OK)) by mainmail.teklibre.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 416C812B791 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:11:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090914201516.GQ9795@newton.linlan> (tycho garen's message of "Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:15:16 -0400") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: tycho garen Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org tycho garen writes: > On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 12:59:53PM -0600, Dave T=C3=A4ht wrote: >> "Jing Su @ Gmail" writes: >> > >> > I fully understand that Emacs 21 is way out of date. However, since >> > RHEL is one of the mainstream commercial distros, and is common on >> > servers, it would be great if org-mode can be consistent with such >> > industrial standard'' (which is always way out of date :S ). System >> > administrators will take risk to install unofficial org-mode, but most >> > of them won't risk the whole server, i.e., risk their necks, for a >> > newer but unofficial (according to RH) Emacs version. >> > >>=20 >> No, to heck with that. Most serious users of emacs end up compiling >> their own release, at least until recently, because the official >> releases were so out of date. I would suggest pulling current rpms from >> fedora (maybe they have the equivalent of emacs-snapshot?) And tying >> those on rhel. > > A couple of things. Most significantly, I think it's important to > avoid being so blase about supporting this subset of users, > particularly when the answers--with a little bit of digging--are > pretty simple. Having said that, there's a bunch of stuff that > probably won't work, I would offer a number of other possible > solution.=20 You are right, but I have found the default install of emacs to be so lame on so many distros for so long that I can understand why people have flocked to other editors.=20 Take, for example, the fact that no distro that I know of installs an emacs compatible ansi-term entry in terminfo by default. (Couple that with the fact that no terminal emulator I have found in emacs works as good as the equivalent in xterm, gnome-terminal, etc. It's really bugging me at the moment, actually, I'd really like to use ansi-term but every time I try it ends up spewing data all on the same line after a while. I swear I had it working well for a few days with 23.1 but then I went back to emacs-snapshot because I didn't want to build everything Emacs-snapshot did for me) Multiply by the huge number of packages required to make emacs competitive with eclipse, like semantic. Stir in missing-by-default emacs modes like Python mode. Compare with the bundled supported moduls of vim for system administration and basic programming tasks. Simmer, then run away. Org is the first truly compelling application that emacs has had in years. > > First, I'd look at EPEL, rather than Fedora as a source for RHEL > packages of more recent emacsen to use. If you can get a version of > emacs 22.(something) there's a version of org-mode included with that > version. So a little hop should be enough to get you basic > functionality.=20 > Cool, I wasn't aware of that. > If you're running on servers, as it sounds like you are, getting > graphical support for all the new things that have happened in the > last two version of emacs, might be easier. So that while a lot of > things have changed in emacs in the last four years, the subset of > things in emacs that have changed in the terminal mode, might be > somewhat smaller. And really since org-mode is mostly compatible with > emacs22 still (right?), the barrier might be even lower than many > people think, particularly if you're not going for *full > functionality*.=20 That was the point I tried to make earlier, but wasn't clear. I rarely run emacs on the server at all, preferring to use tramp to access files elsewhere. (And things like pdsh, but I digress) > > Having said that, how much emacs hacekry do people do on servers. Even > though I have emacs23-nox installed on my server, I must say that most > of my text-file-editing on the server happens in Zile, which is > just emacs-like enough for me to avoid pulling my hair out, but very > small/lightweight. So I guess after all of that I'm not sure that I > see the use-case you propose. > > As an aside, I think OS X ships with emacs21, so it's not just RHEL, I've seen that version on a mac. It's sadly deficient.=20 Every serious emacs user on a mac I know immediately installed aquamacs or a more modern gnu emacs. The unserious users just went away. > but I think that more people are willing to tinker with OS X than they > are willing to tinker with RHEL. But, if someone is willing to package Heh. RHEL is there to be an OS you don't worry about, ever, but don't use for anything new and interesting. It has a valid role in life but is currently awfully long in the tooth. > (or use the OpenSuSE build process) to make org-mode/emacs23 packages > for RHEL I think sysadmins might be more willing to give it a try, > given the wonders of (quasi)modern package management.=20 > > Cheers, > tycho --=20 Dave Taht http://the-edge.blogspot.com