From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Eric Abrahamsen Subject: Re: Org Tutorials need more structure Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2013 14:25:06 +0700 Message-ID: <877gdyu5yl.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> References: <87ob7cxbjf.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33690) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VQXqJ-00017M-Af for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:24:36 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VQXqD-0005I6-JO for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:24:31 -0400 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:54017) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VQXqD-0005I0-Cz for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:24:25 -0400 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VQXqB-0000U2-BF for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 09:24:23 +0200 Received: from 114.250.118.5 ([114.250.118.5]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 09:24:23 +0200 Received: from eric by 114.250.118.5 with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2013 09:24:23 +0200 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Matt Price writes: > On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Eric Abrahamsen > wrote: >> Carsten Dominik writes: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> today I looked at our tutorial page at >>> >>> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/index.html >>> >>> and came away with the feeling that that this page has become >>> somewhat useless for people who are really new to Org. I think >>> the page should start with a section of true recommendations >>> for beginners, a path we tell every new users to take in order to >>> learn about Org mode. >>> >>> Can we have a discussion here on how this path should look like? >>> When you came to Org-mode as a newby, what were the three resources >>> that really made an impression on by being accessible and >>> providing feel and promise for digging deeper? >>> >>> - Carsten >> >> My feeling is, the tutorial structure might look like this: >> >> Start with the basics: outlining and structure editing, plus >> introductions to links and properties. >> >> Then four other tutorials, presented in no particular order: >> >> 1. TODOs/agendas/task management (plus clocking) >> 2. Exporting >> 3. Babel >> 4. Tables/spreadsheets > > I would only add that "exporting" is closely linked to "writing in > org" whcih is what I mostly do. This includes topics like footnotes, > which I haven't really figured out yet after 3 years of using org > (admittedly I haven't really tried either). Right, but I think my point was that you can learn pretty much everything there is to learn about authoring and note-taking in org (including footnotes and lists and all that good stuff), without even being aware that the export engine exists. So that can be a completely self-contained tutorial. Then one day someone tells you about exporting. You export your document into six different formats, and your jaw drops. You instantly want to start tweaking the output, and then (and only then) you read the tutorial on exporting, which introduces you to backends, export options, bits of literal backend code, and filters. This tutorial doesn't even need to touch on issues of content or structure, because you've already read about that in tutorial one, and this is /only/ about making your documents appear differently in different output formats. > It might also be nice if these tutorials included some sample setup > code to get intermediate-to-advanced features working even before one > fully understands them. I fully agree in theory, but when you start thinking about the complexity of custom agenda commands, or babel header lines, or TBLFM lines... that's pretty brutal stuff.