From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id mCNIBtfsGWKHWwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 10:03:19 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id SF0bA9fsGWIWIQEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 10:03:19 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A40342B244 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 10:03:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52770 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNsyz-0005G4-RD for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 04:03:17 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59972) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNstQ-0002OC-96 for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 03:57:32 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45790 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNstO-0002Wj-Qn; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 03:57:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=Imh1uxiWm1bX67TeLgBuUPR+0vFZ/Y9F6Nej0I7jjNM=; b=ZYq3rOUbIvdAuqIu0Nzo nv8IgYBjKH6qbufBfmE5BoWw5/c4TQxaWnK5W6zg/25KGvLVJxmu5C5s61ombhvDc05Le+HSCPByQ 65/8Y62ucAe7ljOMceIE+CeoOrWRaPVcAbeYdfrVBnVU5/q1jDjWoWYcWgIZQ4SeeUSF2JNNm9+r/ /ip6WM3qh20kWYqxWF2MC6eJSHAzY2KsLsKKe+VbIeE1g77B6Tgrru1uXBhqWmZApoB5NJGHAPB9U MMXoiMfLtk1nlxY2z2h+6TsVfYjSQ1649GyjCFJhHSmA6q8yS/BkbSlRl/hNqvQxE+Mly0zQ+VX68 EfCXWY8Kx7bxCQ==; Received: from [37.170.206.52] (port=53585 helo=hal) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNstC-0007zE-1c; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 03:57:18 -0500 Received: by hal (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 45F131E0408; Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:57:15 +0100 (CET) From: Bastien To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github In-Reply-To: <87r17q2n3i.fsf@localhost> (Ihor Radchenko's message of "Sat, 26 Feb 2022 13:50:09 +0800") Organization: GNU References: <0472f849f3ae42df68b0f031d61594d9@posteo.de> <87ilt3yvqj.fsf@localhost> <877d9j3u91.fsf@localhost> <17c95e5a298c213c63b6f7ac9f05aac4@posteo.de> <87y21z2d2b.fsf@localhost> <871qzqg81c.fsf@gnu.org> <87r17q2n3i.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:57:15 +0100 Message-ID: <877d9ij990.fsf@gnu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: c.buhtz@posteo.jp, Emacs orgmode , Richard Stallman Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645866198; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Imh1uxiWm1bX67TeLgBuUPR+0vFZ/Y9F6Nej0I7jjNM=; b=G3O2gQGOIxH8hEAv8QGwtnpVQ+NIYWRXtCkvgpu2i8krCC5ocKWm+pw8CqK/xxxfKpT2RR ruZPoSDYzEoEUfHOlNstuDrGsfFGU1cvUZj0S29X2RCTBVhUEjBgeq+3CNYduO128vAFuJ vVILETAuQ2d7r4w8xMPbA2ax6LO7pRRkgy6kTKHKum87GecEHJ421i7xRaE6jSj8vfK1pb PdxX7KjmtijOyaEFz6SXLYqAm8fmOXwk3vMdDgC8qmvEO2ujfDMBXapmnwVe+jvCJZQpn8 6aE+hYAqQinhg2oCO8mcplol9SUoYCBJr+rtIgv+QCV5fZLmaQz/TJ0fgEiAjA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645866198; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=lYLaF+OyAqcoMmZAgsKB/jnpuGxHql78R2ET45src+bMkrU7C16MSgcNIA4pcDYzqtCdSX yzLyE95SdH1vKB5J+muUzBSTxHqnSNQ0WfTs1ptQbL6KqYwB4STbZHyZh9eADmuvafBGcd aNmaC1w1gIt2seQxRugTMHxFqnCudSnCC9AhvQdB9+9MeGRrAyTIEcA8kl5RAZ5hKun/qH KOjq04/4jMFOwh3zCmWRKxJltBdo5u8gf4aXCteCiE8mhWv9mBj6ontBxNbzvHkORy9Qwv MckzRL9DeMaE4pWEWsvF/Nkcm1ApxoHHPLs6LndyAUG4eXiympod3cTHLvuIXg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=ZYq3rOUb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.82 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=ZYq3rOUb; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A40342B244 X-Spam-Score: -9.82 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: GRMWenC0lDcZ Hi Ihor, Ihor Radchenko writes: > To clarify, I did not intend to make you remove those links, but rather > wanted to hear your opinion and open a discussion. Sorry if I seemed to act upon this too hastily. Here is my opinion on the matter. I think we should consider two separate issues: (1) whether the donation mechanism requires users to load non-free Javascript and (2) whether the support mechanism is from an organization that actually supports Free Software maintainers and developers. Paypal is bad on (1) and irrelevant on (2): removing the Paypal link seems like a good move. The amount I receive from paypal (~150=E2=82=AC per year) is not something that can justify promoting Paypal for the ~30K monthly visitors of https://orgmode.org. GitHub Sponsors is bad on (1) and looks better on (2) but it requires donators to use GitHub, something that the GNU project does not want to encourage. If _I_ want to use GitHub Sponsors this is my decision, but a website from the GNU project should not advertize this donation mechanism. Liberapay is apparently not so good on (1) but the source code is under the CC0 license (this choice seems weird but I won't argue about it) and we can contact the developers so that they get better on (1). It seems to me a good solution for (2): it is run by people who care about Free Software developers and maintainers. So, promoting liberapay.com as the *only* donation mechanism seems the best move here. If we give the choice between GitHub Sponsors, Paypal and liberapay.com, donators will take the easy way and liberapay.com will miss opportunities to get more users and supporters. > As Michael pointed out, https://my.fsf.org/donate itself contains a > paypal payment option: > >>> PayPal (not recommended: requires nonfree JavaScript) The FSF is not the GNU project. I think it is good that GNU software maintainers can be more strict about this and avoid Paypal. > The entry barriers are important. From my own experience, compared to > just bank details, some online payment made a difference in my decisions > to donate. Easy and familiar web services really facilitate actual > donations (as well as feedback from new users). I understand. If one day more Org contributors appear on a Worg page where they advertize their need for donations (and I encourage Org contributors to add such a page), I would have no problem with links to donations services that are not aligned with GNU standards. But that's because Worg is a community-driven website, distinct from the official https://orgmode.org page. (As I said, perhaps a dedicated domain name for Worg would be useful.) > I wish there were more easy donation options for an ordinary user to > donate to FSF projects without a need to rely on non-free software.=20 Sure! In the meantime, M-x list-packages RET could advertize ways to support maintainers. GNU ELPA packages would follow GNU standards on what donation services to accept, while NonGNU ELPA and MELPA would probably be less strict. But in general, having the links there would raise awareness about the maintainers need for support (I myself often install GNU and NonGNU ELPA packages without reading the associated website). > I just tried to setup a payment via liberapay using firefox with librejs > extension. I was unable to complete the card payment.=20 See https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1374 - I think there is room for progress. > But it leaves us with no real option to allow _easy_ > donations yet committing to FSF guidelines. My experience is that increasing donations is less about making it technically easier for potential donators and more about communicating about the need for donations. Which is not easy to do _at all_! >> I guess we shall remove references to non-free software (like the >> Sublime Text editor - I will do this later on.) > > Sounds reasonable. Done. > If we really want to be very strict about following FSF, we might advice > users about alternative ways to view youtube (invidious/youtube-dl).=20 Adding this a notice for Worg would be useful, yes. (There is no youtube.com links on https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb.) Best, --=20 Bastien