Dear all, apologies for my frequent e-mails. It’s just that I am evaluating the citations facility for me. This time it’s about non-page locators. Take the following document: #+TITLE: Test #+AUTHOR: testauthor #+LANGUAGE: de #+bibliography: /tmp/mwe/mwe.bib #+cite_export: csl /tmp/mwe/juristische-schulung.csl Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. juristische-schulung.csl is https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/e22b8a566bad9b4c7f52720f60dd875057a5d210/juristische-schulung.csl. This is mwe.bib: @Book{saenger2013gsr, author = {Ingo Saenger}, title = {Gesellschaftsrecht}, year = {2013}, edition = {2}, publisher = {Franz Vahlen}, location = {München}, langid = {ngerman}} Note how this work is not cited by page, but instead (which is common among German judicial literature) by section number (§) plus margin number (Rn.). Exporting this e.g. to HTML yields in Footnote 1: § Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), 12 Rn. 488 That is rather unexpected. It has pulled the § sign in front of the citation. The citation should have looked like this: Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), § 12 Rn. 488 If I replace the citation in the document with Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr p. 245]. then it produces the expected Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), 245 (the page locator label, "S." in German, is intentionally suppressed by the CSL style, so this is not a bug. However, the § locator has to appear and is not suppressed by the CSL style). If I export with the default "bare" processor, the citation comes out fine as "(Ingo Saenger, 2013 § 12 Rn. 488)". I conclude from this that org somehow mistreats the locator if it is not a page number. I used org 9.5 from MELPA and Citeproc.el from commit 34e66583d95a8d80fb5b9f2960f3382ca0e6d3ab. Is it a bug or (again) my error? -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
Hello, M. ‘quintus’ Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> writes: > apologies for my frequent e-mails. It’s just that I am evaluating the > citations facility for me. On the contrary, feedback on citations is very much welcome. This is a new features, and as such, has some rough edges. > This time it’s about non-page locators. Take the following document: > > #+TITLE: Test > #+AUTHOR: testauthor > > #+LANGUAGE: de > #+bibliography: /tmp/mwe/mwe.bib > > #+cite_export: csl /tmp/mwe/juristische-schulung.csl > > Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. > > juristische-schulung.csl is > https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/e22b8a566bad9b4c7f52720f60dd875057a5d210/juristische-schulung.csl. > > This is mwe.bib: > > @Book{saenger2013gsr, > author = {Ingo Saenger}, > title = {Gesellschaftsrecht}, > year = {2013}, > edition = {2}, > publisher = {Franz Vahlen}, > location = {München}, > langid = {ngerman}} > > Note how this work is not cited by page, but instead (which is common > among German judicial literature) by section number (§) plus margin number > (Rn.). Exporting this e.g. to HTML yields in Footnote 1: > > § Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), 12 Rn. 488 > > That is rather unexpected. It has pulled the § sign in front of the > citation. The citation should have looked like this: > > Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), § 12 Rn. 488 [...] > Is it a bug or (again) my error? It is a bug. You use a non-breaking space between the locator and the number. I hadn't anticipated this (duh!). I fixed it. Could you confirm it? Thank you. Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou
Am Sonntag, dem 10. Oktober 2021 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou: > On the contrary, feedback on citations is very much welcome. This is > a new features, and as such, has some rough edges. Thanks for bearing with me. > It is a bug. You use a non-breaking space between the locator and the > number. I hadn't anticipated this (duh!). I fixed it. Could you confirm > it? Actually, I have remapped the § key to automatically always insert an NBSP following it -- I need the § sign all the time and in normal text line-breaking after the § violates typographic rules. Thus I did not notice I had an NSBP there. Apologies for not mentioning this. I however do not think the problem is related to the NBSP. I just retried without it, and the § sign is still pulled towards the front. I also retried with current Git (Org mode version 9.5 (release_9.5-93-gd87250 @ /home/quintus/.emacs.d/org-mode/lisp/)), but that does not change anything. Either with the NBSP or with a normal space, the § sign is pulled toward the front. That is, Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. Still yields: § Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. 2013, 12 Rn. 488 Without the NBSP, that is, Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. it yields: § Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. 2013, 12 Rn. 488 Neither is correct; the § should go after the "2013, ". -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
Hello,
M. ‘quintus’ Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> writes:
> I however do not think the problem is related to the NBSP. I just
> retried without it, and the § sign is still pulled towards the front.
> I also retried with current Git (Org mode version 9.5
> (release_9.5-93-gd87250 @ /home/quintus/.emacs.d/org-mode/lisp/)), but
> that does not change anything. Either with the NBSP or with a normal
> space, the § sign is pulled toward the front. That is,
>
> Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488].
>
> Still yields:
>
> § Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. 2013, 12 Rn. 488
>
> Without the NBSP, that is,
>
> Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488].
>
> it yields:
>
> § Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. 2013, 12 Rn. 488
>
> Neither is correct; the § should go after the "2013, ".
Then, this may be a bug in Citeproc library itself. I suggest to report
it upstream.
Regards,
--
Nicolas Goaziou
Am Sonntag, dem 10. Oktober 2021 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou: > Then, this may be a bug in Citeproc library itself. I suggest to report > it upstream. Done: https://github.com/andras-simonyi/citeproc-el/issues/57 -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
Dear All,
On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 at 22:11, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
> Then, this may be a bug in Citeproc library itself. I suggest to report
> it upstream.
looks like an Org (oc-csl) side locator parsing problem to me, because
using the alternative [cite:@saenger2013gsr para. 12 Rn. 488] form I
seem to get the correct result. Can it be a regex matching problem
with the paragraph symbols?
best wishes,
András
Am Sonntag, dem 10. Oktober 2021 schrieb András Simonyi: > looks like an Org (oc-csl) side locator parsing problem to me, because > using the alternative [cite:@saenger2013gsr para. 12 Rn. 488] form I > seem to get the correct result. Can it be a regex matching problem > with the paragraph symbols? Now it’s getting wild. If I use Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr para. 12 Rn. 488]. Then it exports to this: Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), ¶¶ 12 Rn. 488 The locator’s position is correct, but it now has two pilcrow signs ¶ instead of one section sign §. I have never seen that in citations, but maybe it is actually correct for other disciplines than mine. FWIW, if I use Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr line 12 Rn. 488]. it yields the correct Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), Z. 12 Rn. 488 (with "Z." being short for "Zeile", i.e. "line" in German). So this appears to be a problem specifically with the § sign? -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
Hello,
András Simonyi <andras.simonyi@gmail.com> writes:
> looks like an Org (oc-csl) side locator parsing problem to me, because
> using the alternative [cite:@saenger2013gsr para. 12 Rn. 488] form I
> seem to get the correct result. Can it be a regex matching problem
> with the paragraph symbols?
You're right. I thought I had solved the regexp part but I was wrong.
I pushed a new attempt to solve this.
Sorry for the noise.
Regards,
--
Nicolas Goaziou
Hello,
M. ‘quintus’ Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> writes:
> Now it’s getting wild.
Indeed. The "fix" I introduced was a mistake. I pushed a new fix.
I think the initial issue is solved now. Could you confirm it?
Thank you.
Regards,
--
Nicolas Goaziou
Am Montag, dem 11. Oktober 2021 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou: > Indeed. The "fix" I introduced was a mistake. I pushed a new fix. > I think the initial issue is solved now. Could you confirm it? Thank you so far -- we are getting closer. Now at »Org mode version 9.5 (release_9.5-102-gd0b557 @ /home/quintus/.emacs.d/org-mode/lisp/)«, the /positioning/ is correct. What is still not correct is the character used for the locator label. For me, Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. now (regardless of a NSBP or normal space) exports to: Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), ¶¶ 12 Rn. 488 As explained, the positioning is now correct. However, instead of the section § sign it now has two pilcrow signs ¶¶. It should be just one sign, and it should be a section sign rather than a pilcrow one. -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 1:57 PM M. ‘quintus’ Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> wrote: > As explained, the positioning is now correct. However, instead of the > section § sign it now has two pilcrow signs ¶¶. It should be just one > sign, and it should be a section sign rather than a pilcrow one. Looks like § is currently mapped to the same as ¶: "paragraph", which is indeed incorrect. https://github.com/citation-style-language/locales/blob/0cc3885f6100e26ac6c6d103efa6f3d7195fd21b/locales-de-DE.xml#L210 Bruce
Am Montag, dem 11. Oktober 2021 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > Looks like § is currently mapped to the same as ¶: "paragraph", which > is indeed incorrect. > > https://github.com/citation-style-language/locales/blob/0cc3885f6100e26ac6c6d103efa6f3d7195fd21b/locales-de-DE.xml#L210 This is interesting. Pandoc -- which I thought relies on these files? -- outputs the expected § sign. For Das ist ein Test [@saenger2013gsr, § 12 Rn. 488]. it yields Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), § 12 Rn. 488↩ which is what I would have expected. The issue appears to be in the way § is interpreted in the text input. After reading the locales-de-DE.xml file, I suspect a case of lost in translation. In German, when read out aloud, we spell the “§” character as “paragraph”. This is evidently different from the English speaker, who, as I have been told, would read it out as “section”. However, in fact the German word “Paragraph” translates to “section” in English. The unit below it is called “Absatz” in German -- in English, it would be “paragraph”. That is: | English | German | German Short form | |-----------+-----------+-------------------| | Section | Paragraph | § | | Paragraph | Absatz | Abs. | At least, when it comes to legal contexts. As it always is the case with language, meaning can vary be context. If I talk about sections of a novel, in German it would be “Abschnitt” rather than “Paragraph”. But that’s not something one would cite. If I really would need to cite a novel, I would cite it either by chapter or by page number (with line number, if necessary). There is no symbolic sign to my knowledge to denote the unit below § in German. The locales-de-DE.xml files suggests ¶. That might actually be valid in some discipline, but we do not use that in jurisprudence. I do not see a problem with it; it can be left in. What needs to change is the part of org that maps § to CSL's "paragraph". § needs to be mapped to "section" instead. Long story short: I do not think that it is a bug in locales-de-DE.xml, and I guess Pandoc proves my point here. Please map § to "section" instead of "paragraph" in org-cite, i.e., do it the way Pandoc does it. -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
M. ‘quintus’ Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> writes:
> Long story short: I do not think that it is a bug in locales-de-DE.xml,
> and I guess Pandoc proves my point here. Please map § to "section"
> instead of "paragraph" in org-cite, i.e., do it the way Pandoc does
> it.
I mapped both § and §§ to "section". Hopefully, the issue is now
completely fixed.
Regards,
Am Dienstag, dem 12. Oktober 2021 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou: > I mapped both § and §§ to "section". Hopefully, the issue is now > completely fixed. Nearly :-). Thank you so much for your hard work so far! It is incredible to see how this develops. With »Org mode version 9.5 (release_9.5-104-g2b1fc6 @ /home/quintus/.emacs.d/org-mode/lisp/)« now Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. gives: Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), §§ 12 Rn. 488 Positioning and choice of locator label is correct. The one thing left is that it uses double §§ instead of a single §, that is, it treats the citation as a plural one whereas it should be a singular one. The same happens with Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr section 12 Rn. 488]. Interestingly, the input Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12]. (which has no suffix) does export to Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), § 12 with only one § sign. Then, a real multi-section citation like this: Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr §§ 12 ff.]. instead yields a single §: Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), § 12 ff. This one however: Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr §§ 12-14]. is correct again: Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), §§ 12-14 This is a little confusing. Maybe an error on my part? Do I need to signal singular and plural use more explicitely? -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<
Dear All, On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 07:43, M. ‘quintus’ Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> wrote: > Das ist ein Test [cite:@saenger2013gsr § 12 Rn. 488]. > > gives: > > Saenger, Gesellschaftsrecht, 2. Aufl. (2013), §§ 12 Rn. 488 [...] > This is a little confusing. Maybe an error on my part? Do I need to > signal singular and plural use more explicitely? No, it's citeproc-el which is supposed to determine whether the passed locator string represents single vs multiple references, using § vs §§ shouldn't make a difference, because they simply signal that the label is "section". Apparently, citeproc-el's classifier algorithm doesn't handle some of your examples correctly -- could you open an issue about this on the project page? Thanks in advance! best wishes, András
Am Dienstag, dem 12. Oktober 2021 schrieb András Simonyi: > No, it's citeproc-el which is supposed to determine whether the passed > locator string represents single vs multiple references, using § vs §§ > shouldn't make a difference, because they simply signal that the label > is "section". I see. This explains why it makes no difference whether I use "section" or "§". Trying to find this out from the subsequent text alone sounds ambitious to me, though. There could be difficult edge cases I imagine. > Apparently, citeproc-el's classifier algorithm doesn't > handle some of your examples correctly -- could you open an issue > about this on the project page? Thanks in advance! Done: https://github.com/andras-simonyi/citeproc-el/issues/58 -quintus -- Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu | PGP: Siehe Webseite Passau, Deutschland | kontakt@guelker.eu | O<