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[180.150.91.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r18sm815081pjo.30.2021.04.19.20.54.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 20:54:46 -0700 (PDT) References: <87pmyuyssi.fsf@gmail.com> <87wnsyy4ia.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.15; emacs 28.0.50 From: Timothy To: Eric S Fraga Subject: Re: Concerns about community contributor support In-reply-to: <87wnsyy4ia.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8735vlobjx.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:54:43 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1618890924; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=UeWxCUKuO30W0W7xyCFBJo3yYRGTAYCtZj8eCoJQILE=; b=Y7eompynl9eGEvw9pVP8BbAQd1/dSTQBzPSJGhRmQ2JB3qx+bUPs4FxmcCMTcZeLTbT0jU yOEEE9RLWIb3HJAAeUW1rRJa2Ukh0ITk84qYSzsQv4tb5+kRSLPUTX6pD04Ymdn5EH5hOF ZZxWrytfBcba04vQesnkQ3rJIFYtZ4LoyuspJWHLniR2d+RwmlpZvpvcQTs5+ukDzk6HYP GChNF6Fvz6rdRc3TmvMVKRmc3kZtDRa+xnvrN1fOFid55l7eyn4xN3Jv6DhohZStPJBJNm ROhsYO69AYM/zx9rPKY3nBIuJWxSTRFSIuWwcJRilqjKzl9bDNJjTFUD44vkUA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1618890924; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Vr9P+DwxxAk2XqRkvcHMgbElPayECd6iJ2lC6NH+uJv6ZlaOkIGv7ZP2W4+hjwvJPca5hn tpbkv3SHLc1VYigGturxoNKu+eXF09Eb68jAt1iAnkQ+ZHjSD3racs3acFOX0cRvolJBfB MLnX8IXNW7+35oXlHmakggCkuOvlClHzlNjTYZPbC8WDsnjqOXiKIHBJLnbpwxWbFCsLPZ 5ac/qiw6qUhZd/9FmHmNVPm+Xi0X1un1hVglPWLEee8ss241qteZrFVXt+OF5M525/CbgU UVHXEiAMDRJ5n4mGQLCgot9yRy1cniMTXpQUiNHn4xFOo//xmWups8Yn7xCy3Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Y2JCNwBE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=Y2JCNwBE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0FDCD19192 X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: lXAbkdRDiDIB Hi Eric, Thanks for writing in and sharing your thoughts. I have some specific comments that you may find below, but more generally: I get the impression you approached this from the view of Org development and patch merging. In short, while I appreciate that Org development should be a considered process and that maintainer time is limited --- I think we could improve how well we communicate this to contributors, and maybe even our treatment of contributions. Eric S Fraga writes: > Hello all, > > I've avoided saying anything in this discussion but not from lack of > empathy with the initial post. Many valid points have been made in the > thread and I understand the frustrations. My own view is that org is > now at a different stage than it was some years ago. It is a > feature-full package which generally works well for a very *large* set > of use cases. As a result, it is being used by many people and so is no > longer a niche product. I can't say I see how being used by a large number of people and growing beyond a niche product means that we can't set expectations for patches and/or responsiveness. Though I see you go in a slightly different direction below... > And, hence: > > On Saturday, 17 Apr 2021 at 23:29, Thomas S. Dye wrote: >> But, my sense is that patches to Org mode proper will continue to be >> adopted slowly and deliberately. > > and this is as it should be. I *rely* on org for my work these days. I > would not want the type of chaotic development we had in the early days, > development that would affect the stability of the package. New > features need to be considered very carefully. Indeed, but a lot don't seem considered, they just seem ignored. Particularly with a lack of communication, this can leave the contributor wondering whether they need to resend there email, bump it, wait for a particular maintainer to have a look at it, explain the intent further, etc. and I don't think leaving such uncertainty to grow is very nice. > But, also, as has also been said: the "maintainers" are volunteers and > do have other things to do. Stating that there is an expectation for > them to answer within a particular time frame is not fair. Maybe I'm not being entirely reasonable, but I would have thought something like "a cursory response within two months of submitting your patch" wouldn't be too hard to uphold; particularly when a cursory response could just be "we've been rather busy as of late, we'll get back to you on this in the future". > If there is a feature *you* need that is not there, the beauty of Emacs > is that you can have that feature, if you have implemented it, > regardless of whether it is accepted in the main org package. A large > part of my org environment is code that I have written myself to meet my > needs; my org specific config file is 3000 lines. Some bits along the > way have migrated into org or have informed org features but I can work > the way I want to or need to regardless of whether the features are in > the main code or in my own config. > > The excellent work that was done in creating version 9 (or maybe 8?) in > providing a wide range of hooks and filters means that practially > everything is customisable without requiring changes to org itself. > > And this leads back to the first point: I want org to exhibit a certain > level of stability now as otherwise much of my workflow would break. I > suspect many others have this same requirement. And the maintainers are > very good at avoiding breakage when new features are accepted but this > takes time to evaluate the impact of those new features. I too appreciate the versatility of elisp, and the way Org has been constructed that allow it to be modified so heavily by the end user --- I should know, I have ~4k lines of Org modification in my config. However, this does not preclude good ideas for Org modification being merged in. If I have a bugfix, or a very useful modification to Org, that's great for me, but it's good to share the improvement upstream. Isn't this a large part of the benefit of an open source development model? And when a patch does need to be carefully considered over a period of months or years, surely it's good to communicate that to the author instead of leaving them with silence? Please let me know what your thoughts are, Timothy.