From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Richard Lawrence Subject: Re: Citations, continued Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:51:58 -0800 Message-ID: <86oap0l7bk.fsf@berkeley.edu> References: <87vbjmn6wy.fsf@berkeley.edu> <87d25rkmag.fsf@berkeley.edu> <54d1bc7b.c57d440a.3c5d.2dca@mx.google.com> <87vbjh284z.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87mw4tk4m7.fsf@berkeley.edu> <87oap7z664.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87fvaibr3k.fsf@berkeley.edu> <87y4o9s5qc.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87d25kpxap.fsf@pank.eu> <87k2zsso3w.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87vbjcoewx.fsf@gmx.us> <87bnl4shqg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87h9uwwmgt.fsf@gmx.us> <87zj8oqqtz.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87386eywus.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r3tydswi.fsf@gmx.us> <861tlxn3c5.fsf@berkeley.edu> <86wq3pkxpo.fsf@berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38126) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLaWc-0005fY-9B for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:52:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLaWV-0004WC-La for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:52:30 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:43364) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLaWV-0004Ur-BW for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 11:52:23 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YLaWJ-0003ic-CI for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:52:11 +0100 Received: from c-67-169-117-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([67.169.117.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:52:11 +0100 Received: from richard.lawrence by c-67-169-117-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 17:52:11 +0100 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Stefan Nobis writes: > Richard Lawrence writes: > >> I know these commands are convenient, and that not having them would >> introduce this class of errors, but the question is whether they are >> so important that it's worth providing an equivalent for them in >> non-LaTeX backends. > > Hmmm... I don't see this as a big problem. Either the exporter or some > tool has to be able to read from the bibliography database and has to > understand at least parts of the available fields (e.g. author and > year to enable author-year style citations). Based on this it should > be easy to only output some of the fields (e.g. only author). Well, a lot of the time, it probably is. But what if the author's name is, say, `John von Neumann' (to use a recently-mentioned example)? Then the exporter needs to figure out (1) whether to output the full name or just the last name; if the latter, (2) whether the last name is `Neumann' or `von Neumann'; and if the latter, (3) how to capitalize the last name in the context where it appears. > But anyway: Some tool is needed to generate the bibliography with all > its data - this tool has to handle all these details and therefore it > should be not too hard to get partial data from it. That is true. Some tool does have to do this, and there are tools that are designed for it outside of LaTeX (like CSL processors) that Org could rely on. But I really don't have any idea how easy it would be to make the exporter interact with them in a fine-grained way like this, or what constraints they would place on citation support in Org. Does anyone have a sense of this? > BTW: I don't think any special formatting should be required - ASCII > or even HTML would never look the same as a LaTeX generated PDF. So > minor drawbacks are IMHO not as important as to be able to express > important details in the source. That is true. The question we are trying to reach a consensus on is just what constitutes `important'. :) > I think, the syntax should be quite flexible (at least easy to extend, > with compact, nice looking extension-syntax). Yes, I agree. Still, as I said elsewhere, I think it's really important to draw a clear line between the `main' citation syntax, which encodes features that are important enough to support fully on all backends, and the syntax for extensions, which encode features that might only work on some backends or in one's personal setup. I think this is important for document portability and so authors and editors know what they can rely on. I also think it's important because I suspect the only way we're going to get a working Org citation syntax is if we try very hard to limit what goes into the first category to something (much) less than `everything we can now do with LaTeX'. We can always move more stuff into the first category later on, if it becomes clear that it's needed. I certainly don't mean to be telling people that the LaTeX features they are now relying on are not useful, or not important. (I apologize if I'm coming off that way!) I just think some of them might not be *so* useful that they are worth the effort to fully support on other backends, at least initially. > If some backend lacks support for some feature, maybe someone finds > the time to fix it (and then org-mode would rule the world > :)). Otherwise a simple fallback (default citation style, output > citation string unchanged,...) will be used. IMHO, this is really only acceptable for features that fall in the second category. If there are `core' features of Org citations that don't work on all backends, then there isn't really anything gained by using Org citations instead of just sticking with LaTeX (or another backend-specific citation format). I am personally totally fine with a syntax that allows you to say things like: [cite: see @Doe99 for more. :latex-command SomeEsotericCitationCommand] or [cite: see @Doe99 for more. :custom-type my-custom-type] as long as it is obvious to an author that these citations might not export correctly on all backends, in contrast to a citation makes use of only the `main' Org citation syntax. Individual authors are in a better position to decide when that tradeoff is acceptable to them. Best, Richard