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[124.169.22.230]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f13-20020a170902ab8d00b001782aab6318sm409295plr.68.2022.09.29.15.27.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 29 Sep 2022 15:27:54 -0700 (PDT) References: <87a66lpm5p.fsf@localhost> <8735cdpkiz.fsf@localhost> <87y1u5o1ko.fsf@localhost> <87a66k2j5y.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> <7edd911f-b74-6521-634e-7f30acdb5fad@panix.com> <867d1nj1yn.fsf@gmail.com> <877d1n3ky0.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> <86tu4ro11c.fsf@gmail.com> <87edvu95yr.fsf@localhost> <86pmfeo4os.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.9.0; emacs 29.0.50 From: Tim Cross To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Timothy , Jude DaShiell , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Apology [was: Re: Org HTML export accessibility (was: org exported pdf files)) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2022 07:05:40 +1000 In-reply-to: <86pmfeo4os.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <868rm1oly1.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::532; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x532.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1664490513; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=VfeFFxTexS3Mn9KGb7wqi1XnJMoOCRA1Vq+FE9t81V4=; b=NIBLvdf5U71lEEZGlqiK5UXRV8CSGVxr0WPVp31q9dIHAfWyAJLEJwOT07EMLfn69FXyRF 2Sw03rqcn3SM0XDRYa1XMpkYuzMEhqBGIaHEnSJ32qtmbUirnMpvW1mJAbp4qm9RCRhlXm hi+SpfxRkiYpIGbyiCrwIaHFt7hJhmteKgUnErEyE2Zvf6ABb0PiMmkCn7yoayn5dCrixf AZLR8+NQo6n5xR6hqK9qQlbjddBlCsiWpW15w6chl4UntEMeOw6cvxygVKKoXCj+7MyEvo iWoGxNDgr2garHRT2FPzftR9nJvE3McfTahl9Y6QkijosEuUKImAz8lRCd3d5g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1664490513; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=IKNRPEbRilk0S1Z9J4I1sRKqlaTYzxttr7hCg8I6oIIkz+rDg6ryhkkxyv/TLYk0lhDgpt RW61TUvP4d2JsL50GG+/rcR6J0ENDlXHuhwft1bBB6xmnMw3OhoaXgCHA1V5UMblfcLkRT O4XDnw1Q0a/eNNn20o3IQ2MTtKy6BPYtsUSIO9LHTV5EhWzC2W2MuD4BZX22rb0h7sXmdK HcqkcLdQwc0yQWFnU8euvOwnnQ/Qf790DgZ3F6ilrP3YrZerzfUaaWU1wnUiKYOYlgg6+V QkJNtrQ+odFUBjA8pMP+miugI1zotnd9UsRwyI5Oa2mjmT0qKmJhOT06XKxflA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=dlDJKjL7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.84 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=dlDJKjL7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E866C3FB68 X-Spam-Score: -3.84 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: mZ+GMbrtsJpQ Dear all, I think I owe everyone an apology. I have allowed frustration from another area of life colour my response here and as a result, my tone and assessment was too negative. While it is correct that we cannot use org mode to generate accessible PDFs and that does mean in environments where policy mandates accessible content (which is PDF), we cannot use org mode. The ability to generate accessible HTML is on the other hand quite possible. Unlike PDF, the burden for doing this rests primarily with the author and not the data processing framework. There are probably some things we can do to improve or encourage accessible authoring, such as alerting authors to content which looks like it should have an alt tag. I will give some thought to that and when I get a chance, will see how well various html based back ends deal with accessibility checking tools. For those interested and because it might help with understanding in this area, I thought I'd outline the actual cause of my frustration. The following isn't directly related to org-mode, but may be informative for some. However, it is a little long, so feel free to just delete and move on if your so inclined. There is a little irony here as well. I've been using org mode since it was first released. I even recall email discussions with Carsten when he was first looking at how to improve outlining. It is org mode which allowed me to generate really good quality documents and track all the data and tasks I had to manage in my various job roles. People often commented that they found it interesting that some of the best looking documents produced in our area were from the person who is legally blind! The irony being I cannot easily access the PDF output I created and I became part of the problem by generating inaccessible documentation! One very long standing frustration I have had in my career has been to do with access to training materials. Most training organisations are extremely reluctant to provide electronic copies of their learning materials. I have lost count of the number of non-disclosure forms I have been forced to sign in order to get electronic documents from a training organisation (even though they are legally required to provide their materials in an accessible format). Even when I have managed to sign the necessary paperwork and get the documents, they have often been in the form of DRM protected PDFs with an expiration date. While those without any disability can retain the learning materials for future reference, it is not a luxury afforded to anyone dependent on assistive technology. Worse yet, most DRM protected formats also require the use of non-free platforms, such as Windows or MacOS (I did often get some perverse satisfaction from cracking the DRM protection, which in most cases, is fairly easy to do). However, there is an ironic component here as well. Usually, the DRM protected PDFs are actually very accessible once you jump through all the necessary hoops. They are typically well tagged and easy to navigate. On the other hand, the non-DRM PDFs are rarely accessible despite correctly formatted PDFs actually being one of the most accessible formats available. Often, once forced to provide electronic copies of their learning materials, training organisations will provide image PDFs, generated from a scanned version of their materials. Image PDFs are 100% inaccessible - they are just pictures, so you cannot even extract the text using tools like pdftotext[1] Even when not image PDFs, they often lack the necessary tagging etc (though, this situation has improved in recent years as many tools now default to accessible output rather than requiring it to be enabled). Even once you jump through all the necessary hoops, your not out of the woods yet. My current frustration has been with obtaining the important bit of paper which says your trained and certified. After completing the course I looked at what I needed to do to sit the certification exam. The exam is one which has to be done at a large certification examination centre and it is done electronically. It is actually run by a very large US based training organisation, who I will not name. It runs out that I cannot do the training at this time. I have to give them a minimum of 12 months notice to sit the certification exam because due to my 'special' needs, the whole examination centre has to be booked out just for me! To make it worse, the assistive technology I have to use is a program called JAWS, which only runs on windows and which I am totally unfamiliar with. My suggestion to just have a sighted person assist me by reading the questions and entering the answers has been rejected as well as all other suggestions and appeals. It is highly likely I will just forgo certification. While it would have been handy, it isn't essential. I outline all of this not for sympathy but to try and promote understanding of the challenges faced by many who need access to accessible content. Accessibility is also an area which isn't well serviced by the open source community. This is not a criticism, just an observation. It is also easy to understand why. Most successful open source projects are about scratching an itch. Org mode was born by one person (Carsten) scratching an itch which turned out to be an itch many others also had. With accessibility, the number of people wit the itch is significantly smaller and there is a lot of itch variation. Those with the technical skill to scratch it are even smaller. regards, Tim [1] I have had some people say to me that the situation isn't that bad with PDFs as you can use tools like pdftotext to extract the text from the files and then read it with a screen reader. Unfortunately, this approach does not always provide good output. Often, the structure of the document is lost and bits become tangled/jumbled (consider what is the best way to dump text from a table in a linear manner when you have little meta data about that table. The output also often contains 'artifacts' and odd characters as well as spurious spaces which make it difficult to understand or process correctly by the text-to-speech system.