Re: Re: Custom entry IDs in HTML export

From: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
To: Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de>
Cc: org-mode mailing list <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>,
	Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: Custom entry IDs in HTML export
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:26:48 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <70EC5312-4BB8-4A7F-A2AD-7B96CBF7C068@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87hc0ob9wc.fsf@kassiopeya.MSHEIMNETZ>

On Apr 16, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>> Hi Sebastian,
>>
>> On Apr 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:
>>
>>> Hm - counter arguments?
>>>
>>> The only counter argument is, that hand made IDs for links are  
>>> prone to
>>> error. But that risk should be up to the user.
>>
>> Yes.  and during the export, I can actually check and throw a  
>> warning or an
>> error if the same custom ID shows up twice.
>>
>>>
>>> I actually changed my mind a little in this concern.
>>>
>>> If the user clicks a section link in the toc to jump to a section,  
>>> he
>>> can bookmark the page with exactly that jump target. If the jump  
>>> target
>>> (the ID) is human readable, the bookmark is more verbose.
>>
>> Yes, this is really the best application.  Also, when hovering over  
>> internal
>> links, it is helpful if the link displays the human-readable  form.
>>
>>> Just one wish:
>>>
>>> The containers should reflect that change (HRID = human readable  
>>> id):
>>>
>>> <div   id="outline-container-HRID">
>>> <h4  id="HRID">                   headline    </h4>
>>> <div id="outline-text-HRID">
>>>   sections content...
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>
>>
>> Sure, we can do this.  I would then add sec-xxx as one
>> of the alternative anchors as well.
>>
>> However:  If I make the structure as you indicate above,
>> do I understand correctly that the structure of a section without a
>> human-readable id should be changed to this:
>>
>> <div   id="outline-container-sec-1.1">
>> <h4  id="sec-1.1">                   headline    </h4>
>> <div id="outline-text-sec-1.1">
>>   sections content...
>> </div>
>> </div>
>>
>>
>> Note the "sec-" which is added to the stuff that currently
>> defines the structure.
>
>
>
> I considered the `sec-' part of the automatic IDs.
>
> In either case I'd have to adjust org-info.js. So why not go for the
> human readable IDs without `sec-'?
>
>
> Right now we have:
>
> <div id="outline-container-2" class="outline-2">
> <h2 id="sec-2"><span class="section-number-2">2</span> Things I want  
> to find out </h2>
> <div class="outline-text-2" id="text-2">
>
> The `sec-' part is in the headlines ID only.

Why?  Because this introduced a parsing inconsistency for you between  
automatic and custom IDs.  Because for the automatic ones, you need to  
strip "sec-" to retrieve the correct suffix for the container etc  
names.  With the custom IDs, no such stripping should be done.  Does  
this not make things harder?

- Carsten

>
>
>
>   Sebastian
>
>
>
>
>>> That way the script would keep working with older pages.
>>> Automatic IDs and human readable ones could be mixed.
>>>
>>>
>>> The '<a id="">' anchors are scanned anyway, as are all jump  
>>> targets in
>>> the page.
>>
>> Yes, you implemented that some time ago, I remember.
>>
>>>
>>> Maybe this is even the point to re-work the parser of org-info.js to
>>> become independent of the TOC at all. The script could search for
>>> headings instead. That's more work, but the script would then work  
>>> for
>>> all HTML pages with a structure similar to the org-export's one:
>>
>> So this would mean, we could read web pages with your java
>> support even if those webpages were not created with Org?
>> Pretty cool.
>>
>>> <div id=""><hx id=""></hx><div>content</div></div>
>>>
>>> but I could postpone this, if you fullfill my wish above.
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Apr 16, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Sebastian Rose wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Hi Sebastian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I kind of like the idea to have a property that can be
>>>>>> used to set an ID, as an alternative to the <<target>>
>>>>>> notation.  Actually, using a property seems a lot cleaner,
>>>>>> thanks for coming up with this idea, Daniel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can also follow the reasoning that it is useful to have
>>>>>> the table of contents link to the human-readable id, because
>>>>>> it provides a general, simple workflow to retrieve a link that
>>>>>> will persist through changes of the document.  This workflow
>>>>>> was described also by Bernt earlier in this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I also agree that the main id in the <h3> tag
>>>>>> should be the automatically generated one because this is
>>>>>> best for automatic processing and because of all the arguments
>>>>>> you have presented.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would it cause problems for org-info.js if the toc points to
>>>>>> a user specified anchor in the headline, instead of the main
>>>>>> ID that is inside the <h3> tag?  THis would really be the only
>>>>>> required change.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll have to test this before I can give a final answer to this
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> But regardless of the results, I will adjust the script to  
>>>>> reflect that
>>>>> change. The script should not rule the HTML export and it will  
>>>>> be an
>>>>> easy thing to do.
>>>>
>>>> But I do want to hear any counter arguments you might have....
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sebastian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - Carsten
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Daniel Clemente wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> El dv, mar 27 2009, Sebastian Rose va escriure:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What we have now, just as Carstens said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Creates this headline in HTML:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <h2 id="sec-2"><a name="human-readable" id="human-readable"></
>>>>>>>> a>2 Section B
>>>>>>>> </h2>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is enough for all the use cases I can think of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, this is enough except for two things:
>>>>>>> 1. The TOC still links to #sec-2 and the user can't change that
>>>>>>> 2. Your syntax doesn't fold very well in the outliner. I mean:  
>>>>>>> if you use
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then the comment appears at the end of the previous section,  
>>>>>>> and you can
>>>>>>> miss
>>>>>>> it when you are viewing the heading „Section B“. I  would swap  
>>>>>>> both lines
>>>>>>> (solution 1):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But since there are already LOGBOOK drawers under the heading,  
>>>>>>> it would be
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> lot clearer to use a property, like EXPORT_ID (solution 2):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>> :PROPERTIES:
>>>>>>>> :EXPORT_ID: human-readable
>>>>>>>> :END:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this way, the TOC can reliably find the EXPORT_ID, and then  
>>>>>>> generate:
>>>>>>>> <h2 id="sec-2"><a name="human-readable" id="human-readable"></
>>>>>>>> a>2 Section B
>>>>>>>> </h2>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (You could also leave *just* the human-readable id, but having  
>>>>>>> two is not
>>>>>>> bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would prefer solution 1, but I don't because I'm not sure  
>>>>>>> that the TOC
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> find the ID if it is written as a comment anywhere under  the  
>>>>>>> heading (and
>>>>>>> together with other things).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Solution 2 involves thus: a new property to specify the human-
>>>>>>> readable entry ID, which will be used to link to the entry.  
>>>>>>> The automatic
>>>>>>> ID
>>>>>>> (#sec-2) will still work for all entrys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Distinguishing automatic and human readable IDs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One thing I like is, that we now _can_ distinguish the
>>>>>>>> `human-readable-target' (human readable) from the  
>>>>>>>> `sec-2' (not human
>>>>>>>> readable and not context related) using a regular expression.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In org-info.js, I can now prefere the human readable ID in  
>>>>>>>> <a> from an
>>>>>>>> automatic created one, and thus use that to create the links  
>>>>>>>> for `l'
>>>>>>>> and `L'. The same holds true for other programming languages  
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> parsers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If we open the <h3>'s ID for user defined values (bad), we  
>>>>>>>> can not
>>>>>>>> distinguish those ID's using a regular expression and there  
>>>>>>>> is no way
>>>>>>>> to detect the human readable one. There will be no way to  
>>>>>>>> _know_ that
>>>>>>>> the <a>'s ID is the prefered one used for human readable links.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Solution 2 doesn't break the parsing techniques you use; in  
>>>>>>> fact it can
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> make clearer which ID is the human readable one and which  one  
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not extremely important; just useful:
>>>>>>> - for pages with many incoming links from external sites
>>>>>>> - to ensure link integrity (now you can't assure that links  
>>>>>>> will still
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> 1 year ... or in some weeks)
>>>>>>> - to avoid that HTML visitors get directed to a wrong section  
>>>>>>> and can't
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> what they searched
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449  
>>>>> Hannover
>>>>> Tel.:  +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
>>>>> Fax:   +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
>>>>> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
>>>>> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
>>>>> Http:  www.emma-stil.de
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449  
>>> Hannover
>>> Tel.:  +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
>>> Fax:   +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
>>> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
>>> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
>>> Http:  www.emma-stil.de
>>
>
> -- 
> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449  
> Hannover
> Tel.:  +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
> Fax:   +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
> Http:  www.emma-stil.de