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Dye" , Tim Cross , Jean Louis , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <64179802-DA89-4822-82C6-CD52E67C3511@gmail.com> References: <63c66048.630a0220.427bf.a5f6@mx.google.com> <87r0vtiks0.fsf@localhost> <63c671c0.a70a0220.61aa5.56b8@mx.google.com> <87fsc88aq9.fsf@localhost> <63c7dd3d.170a0220.6b4d6.f84f@mx.google.com> <877cxk6oeu.fsf@localhost> <63c86454.170a0220.80970.652d@mx.google.com> <63c8f5a6.170a0220.ea8cf.7f96@mx.google.com> <63c9b654.170a0220.d82d2.4254@mx.google.com> <87mt6e86sr.fsf@tsdye.online> <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> To: Ihor Radchenko X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2b; envelope-from=hooten@gmail.com; helo=mail-oo1-xc2b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674823831; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=4nr+aDV2cTFDtBJ3CyOfhM+3RqoX+IqHE8b2NFQTHCo=; b=EYmOZDppVvjdF54+XMcwCKpvdmFhgJv3QKa7xC/OBUMK3Qh4B6ab1sHZYS4Ryka9HKbyUd JoECV6GNuW+495wk2mP2NEimxwdMyZFhz3i3y2Pk545gO87PLarqBW50Yfj2H8az5APlpU 9GdlYpUQyQqMwsheOVH3n27zDo8K5E13Tz5HnARJ+UkS3YVo3+u98PYfsiWTvAtuQnkTVf ZB4VqnRquvlj6yUbgDUcUNeh+YOr4ZMgEoXtT/lGhmxn0dEvSP3XXJbfun4qzR5u85/3LT jUwwaTpPYn2JMyO5IwvWS4hLZvaMdSKvWbnah1wzN0PUfgFzmNT01kH0a1YwgA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="Ztc91A/W"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674823831; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Y2mft5YwBXmr+oD7eN6jfzXLiiP9exMQSoJeNu9DicH/+SGiyVQlgGz6QaD5Hc94lwmCAV +APAO9/dUnFo+Cswr70pkSNgjYhFUtJQTiuOsvvr2V/x1VcimfIShvea5tpqrL8jiekPqo 9KhmVyBbpXLC6dMfn0LSdVSrUzFqv1sxVhYQRIXkiLqH7iSQVUnWnTgD6dlFOLFN02nLcL uM73D6jFjtvDc+RB0HkAp/JI/Y6WuR8vssk/u04GXX/fe7vh2umYNnDgmNZSHhl/30M04U lN3JQ+aCYirSVKDKX6hLeJV9Urduzuxx9TPa6P1jG4f6QfVRt12c6bqjFmXOgw== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="Ztc91A/W"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.25 X-Spam-Score: -9.25 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9D3631FECA X-TUID: GA8oQ/f8GJ0/ Thanks for the quick feedback! > On 2023-01-27, at 08:09, Ihor Radchenko wrote: >=20 > Following ISO and other standards is indeed a reasonable idea. = However, > the standards are not necessarily designed for human consumption. > In contrast, Org mode is designed to be read by humans as well, even > without Emacs - just as plain text. >=20 > Design for human consumption is one of the reasons we do provide the > redundant information like week day (I personally did find it = extremely > useful on multiple occasions) and do use spaces, deviating from ISO. = The > above ISO example is barely readable by humans. Another example from > wiki page of ISO 8601 is even worse: = R5/2008-03-01T13:00:00Z/P1Y2M10DT2H30M Certainly agree that the ISO format can be difficult for humans to read, = both from=20 the lack of spaces and terse syntax. This isn=E2=80=99t (much) of a problem from a display format perspective = because we can parse=20 the encoded format and present the user with a human readable version. = So the readability=20 issue is more about the encoded format. But unlike the display format, = which could follow=20 whatever grammar or locale preference of the user, the encoded format = must be=20 unambiguously parseable. If it=E2=80=99s possible to make the ISO format = more human readable=20 while still preserving parseability this could be viable. I=E2=80=99m less arguing against the option for encoding things in a = variation of the ISO standard,=20 but urging that Org support using an encoding of the ISO format in its = raw state. > And we need to deviate from ISO 8601 anyway. At least, because it does > not define time zones, only absolute UTC offsets. So, the ability to > conform with the existing formats remains questionable. This is correct for the 2019 version of the ISO 8601. =46rom my understanding the newest ISO draft is incorporating an = existing syntax used=20 in java.time.ZonedDateTime [JAVAZDT] to allow for time zones. So we = could still aim for=20 compliance with published standards. The Internet Extended Date/Time Format (IXDTF) is a forthcoming = standard which=20 defines an extension syntax for timestamps as specified in [RFC3339] = which itself is=20 compatible with the [JAVAZDT] syntax. The IXDTF is of particular interest in this situation because the format = provides a=20 general way to attach any additional information to a timestamp. The = authors have done=20 a great job of lucidly explaining some of the nuances of timestamps. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sedate-datetime-extended/ > I will need more time to look through the provided links and think = about > the ideas. Look forward to your comments!