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[124.169.47.98]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g17-20020a170902869100b00189c62eac37sm3312556plo.32.2023.01.27.13.03.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 27 Jan 2023 13:03:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <63d43c32.170a0220.c3f27.5f10@mx.google.com> X-Google-Original-Message-ID: --text follows this line-- References: <63c66048.630a0220.427bf.a5f6@mx.google.com> <87r0vtiks0.fsf@localhost> <63c671c0.a70a0220.61aa5.56b8@mx.google.com> <87fsc88aq9.fsf@localhost> <63c7dd3d.170a0220.6b4d6.f84f@mx.google.com> <877cxk6oeu.fsf@localhost> <63c86454.170a0220.80970.652d@mx.google.com> <63c8f5a6.170a0220.ea8cf.7f96@mx.google.com> <63c9b654.170a0220.d82d2.4254@mx.google.com> <87mt6e86sr.fsf@tsdye.online> <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.9.17; emacs 29.0.60 From: Tim Cross To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Sterling Hooten , "Thomas S. Dye" , Jean Louis , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 07:58:30 +1100 In-reply-to: <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674853485; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=KjXTR3wVfzQPXrVWsD3ZAyILr/FWTr8saS+IlIIw2FA=; b=QOM1J9nDPNH+owvoAIOQL/jilbLUUrmgd0wcbzqxSRoD5TzTw9vV9GhP71+YpzUgUyZOoD wbmDJ8GMGf9E9cw8ReCO+TRQ0Gg5WHW4SC4/dbWuerJASUrV5aF0MTZS6FQuikFSvE1QsR WQnOrtb8MgI93kuMi5mSKmSjQkzTWyyL4RsqhkUnq+DxbNLtqrbEKWv5LP+2kTsk0AfcL0 uKXjazEsdho8AIwNIM5+hWJZSE2kuS9SC3/HkmKGvf/Lhkp8wNvsD6SryoThg7HJrJzI61 GodI+UPUeJKjJgev8y41Qg0sXpxMKEV22uZtOCue+sIA5azQjZ7e4Ac9ZFNRhw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=AEYmtaqK; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674853485; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=DutzOt2S0Nqpm9LvcD3TpWov4LRsLb0RqsZG33Pu6jsjldU/MvEhXev2wvSuG+4OHc9p5u pJdq7SEvFzN/XETTMwPCl8LYjQ8sHMPJf3dB7sQymrOAjBX31fzDxf4mdoNSIj46VAk5EJ wYe50vQjsGAR5Q5X/Ex1j08cQjXfvh93eYBqA9KU6Q5gkL4tDadotWKPqBtq7nYzFJZ11a dPiRL2xSMGzV7Y48N7HN3LtrwMGtdjaPJDBSGFiTaXqiN5Kq8pOZ5rJcMoymqCOdl5VEax DtLfRnEwkeb/x9Oe2cVfqMw51bTHhgeUzZU/YCFAZqPvF9TcE37smd4XiUOMTQ== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=AEYmtaqK; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -10.05 X-Spam-Score: -10.05 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A039611E26 X-TUID: SLOAJOzJXyxW Ihor Radchenko writes: > First of all, thanks for the detailed suggestion! > I will need more time to look through the provided links and think about > the ideas. > > I will provide one important consideration you missed in the below commen= t. > > Sterling Hooten writes: > >> What format and syntax should Org use? >> >> A heretical suggestion: We should abandon the day of week abbreviation >> and use a new format. >> ... >> [2023-01-25 Wed 13:57]=E2=80=93[2023-01-26 Thu 13:57] >> >> it would be: >> >> [2023-01-25T16:57:42Z/2023-01-26T16:57:42Z]. > > Following ISO and other standards is indeed a reasonable idea. However, > the standards are not necessarily designed for human consumption. > In contrast, Org mode is designed to be read by humans as well, even > without Emacs - just as plain text. > > Design for human consumption is one of the reasons we do provide the > redundant information like week day (I personally did find it extremely > useful on multiple occasions) and do use spaces, deviating from ISO. The > above ISO example is barely readable by humans. Another example from > wiki page of ISO 8601 is even worse: R5/2008-03-01T13:00:00Z/P1Y2M10DT2H3= 0M > > And we need to deviate from ISO 8601 anyway. At least, because it does > not define time zones, only absolute UTC offsets. So, the ability to > conform with the existing formats remains questionable. I strongly agree with Ihor here. We want our timestamps to be easily read and understood by users. I have also found the redundant day of the week information very useful. While we could argue that with overlays or similar, you could get the best of both worlds i.e. a storage format which is easy for functions to parse and a display format which is easy for humans to parse, but that would also work only when you view your org files within org mode. One of the benefits of org mode is its plain text nature and that you can read most org mode files 'raw' and they are quite easy to understand.=20