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From: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
Cc: Sterling Hooten <hooten@gmail.com>,
	"Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.online>, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>,
	Daryl Manning <daryl@wakatara.com>,
	rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 07:58:30 +1100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <63d43c32.170a0220.c3f27.5f10@mx.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost>

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> First of all, thanks for the detailed suggestion!
> I will need more time to look through the provided links and think about
> the ideas.
>
> I will provide one important consideration you missed in the below comment.
>
> Sterling Hooten <hooten@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> What format and syntax should Org use?
>>
>> A heretical suggestion: We should abandon the day of week abbreviation
>> and use a new format.
>> ...
>> [2023-01-25 Wed 13:57]–[2023-01-26 Thu 13:57]
>>
>> it would be:
>>
>> [2023-01-25T16:57:42Z/2023-01-26T16:57:42Z].
>
> Following ISO and other standards is indeed a reasonable idea. However,
> the standards are not necessarily designed for human consumption.
> In contrast, Org mode is designed to be read by humans as well, even
> without Emacs - just as plain text.
>
> Design for human consumption is one of the reasons we do provide the
> redundant information like week day (I personally did find it extremely
> useful on multiple occasions) and do use spaces, deviating from ISO. The
> above ISO example is barely readable by humans. Another example from
> wiki page of ISO 8601 is even worse: R5/2008-03-01T13:00:00Z/P1Y2M10DT2H30M
>
> And we need to deviate from ISO 8601 anyway. At least, because it does
> not define time zones, only absolute UTC offsets. So, the ability to
> conform with the existing formats remains questionable.


I strongly agree with Ihor here. We want our timestamps to be easily
read and understood by users. I have also found the redundant day of the
week information very useful.

While we could argue that with overlays or similar, you could get the
best of both worlds i.e. a storage format which is easy for functions to
parse and a display format which is easy for humans to parse, but that
would also work only when you view your org files within org mode. One
of the benefits of org mode is its plain text nature and that you can
read most org mode files 'raw' and they are quite easy to understand. 



  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-01-27 21:04 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 330+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-13  8:56 [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Daryl Manning
2023-01-13 12:51 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14  6:27   ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-14 12:46     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 11:18   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:26     ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-14 11:42       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15  5:11         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 13:41           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 16:43             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-16 18:37               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 17:40                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-18  9:59                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:25                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 16:24                   ` [SOLUTION] " Jean Louis
2023-01-20 10:57         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 11:29           ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-20 11:36             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 15:10               ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-20 11:39             ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-20 11:48               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21 12:55                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 13:41                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21  9:21               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21 10:14                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 11:49                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 22:51             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 13:03     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 13:22       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 19:10         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 11:21           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 11:30             ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-16 11:39               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 15:43                 ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-16 19:07                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 19:22                     ` Robert Horn
2023-01-16 19:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 20:47                         ` Robert Horn
2023-01-16 21:02                           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 21:48                             ` Robert Horn
2023-01-17  8:53                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17  3:55                           ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-17  8:22                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-17  9:15                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17  9:45                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-18  9:15                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 11:43                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-18 12:02                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 21:16                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19  5:29                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19  6:25                                             ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19 14:17                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 15:55                                                 ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21 13:10                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 16:23                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21 13:50                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 14:31                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 16:55                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19  7:23                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 14:32                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 20:09                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 23:02                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19 23:51                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  0:24                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20  3:46                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  6:14                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-27  6:06                                                             ` Sterling Hooten
2023-01-27  6:09                                                               ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-27  9:54                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-27 21:04                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-29  4:09                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29  6:21                                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-29  6:46                                                                       ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-29 14:10                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 19:37                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31  0:53                                                                         ` Thomas S. Dye
     [not found]                                                                         ` <0597910b-9b01-3c0c-5d06-da171e0de4cd@gmx.at>
2023-01-31  6:08                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29  6:31                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-30 20:36                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 20:38                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29 20:26                                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-30 20:55                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 21:54                                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-31  7:04                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31  8:14                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-31 13:02                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-27 11:09                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 12:49                                                                 ` Sterling Hooten
2023-01-27 13:00                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 15:03                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 13:08                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 20:58                                                                 ` Tim Cross [this message]
2023-01-30 11:25                                                                 ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-31 11:48                                                                   ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 12:19                                                                     ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-31 12:41                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                                                                         ` <CAL9aZksf8AGF=dXg0KAtLPyu1ATt1fLpvdsjN6GMCuK2KRQ56w@mail.gmail.com>
2023-01-31 13:33                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 13:22                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31 13:46                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 19:59                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 12:42                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:28                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:30                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 20:12                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  5:46                                                                           ` tomas
2023-02-01  7:29                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  7:52                                                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-02-01  8:32                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  8:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01  9:38                                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-02-01 10:15                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 14:53                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:36                                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 10:46                                                                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-01 14:43                                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:45                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:05                                                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  8:59                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01  9:40                                                                                 ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-02-01  9:45                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 14:38                                                                                 ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:50                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-03 15:48                                                                                   ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-02-04  5:07                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  9:06                                                                             ` Stefan Nobis
2023-02-01  9:20                                                                               ` tomas
2023-02-01  9:48                                                                                 ` Stefan Nobis
2023-10-29  1:04                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-02-06 15:34                                                                                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2023-02-06 17:03                                                                                     ` tomas
2023-02-07 21:08                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-10-29  1:02                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  7:00                                                                           ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Thomas S. Dye
2023-02-01  7:41                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31 17:56                                                                     ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Fraga, Eric
2023-01-31 18:13                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 18:22                                                                         ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-31 18:56                                                                     ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Greg Minshall
2023-02-01 12:48                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 12:52                                                                         ` tomas
2023-02-02  4:49                                                                           ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-31 20:41                                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-31 23:50                                                                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-01 13:01                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-04 22:33                                                                         ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-04 22:49                                                                           ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-05 10:38                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 11:56                                                                     ` Christian Moe
2023-02-01 12:20                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                                                                         ` <87o7qdsf7h.fsf@christianmoe.com>
2023-02-01 13:26                                                                           ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda)) Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 13:51                                                                             ` tomas
2023-02-01 21:57                                                                               ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-01 22:50                                                                                 ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-02  9:01                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:22                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  7:45                                                                                   ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-02  8:33                                                                                     ` tomas
2023-02-02  9:37                                                                                       ` Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-04 15:44                                                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  5:35                                                                                 ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info tomas
2023-02-02  8:56                                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:16                                                                             ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  8:34                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02 13:59                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02 14:06                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:41                                                                         ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info " Jean Louis
2023-02-02  8:38                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-03 11:31                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-04 10:58                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-04 19:32                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-02-05  9:14                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:46                                                                     ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:12                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  9:12                                                                         ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:20                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  9:27                                                                             ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:38                                                                         ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-01-30 12:30                                                               ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 15:30                                                                 ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-30 15:38                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 15:48                                                                     ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-20  4:03                                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  5:39                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  7:28                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  8:11                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20 15:29                                                           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 22:56                                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  9:35                                                       ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-20 10:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20  6:46                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20  7:34                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  8:17                                                       ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20 12:17                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 16:09                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20 16:56                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 20:37                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21  0:14                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-21  0:37                                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21  5:53                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 15:55                                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22 12:14                                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 13:35                                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22 14:09                                                                           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 23:38                                                           ` Tim Cross
2023-01-21  6:21                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 21:29                                                               ` Tim Cross
2023-01-22  5:50                                                                 ` UTC or not UTC for timestamps in the past ([FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode) Max Nikulin
2023-01-22  6:17                                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22  8:35                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 16:54                                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-23  6:28                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-23 16:04                                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-24  2:34                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24  2:44                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-24  4:48                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24 19:18                                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24  9:34                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-24 16:41                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-26 15:37                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-26 16:31                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-27 21:21                                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-22  7:48                                                                   ` Tim Cross
2023-01-24 17:09                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24 19:20                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24 20:50                                                                       ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 10:35                                           ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 17:57                                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-21 13:51                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 17:09                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-17  8:45                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 16:56                             ` Robert Horn
2023-01-19 17:44                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-19 17:48                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-17 15:37                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:29                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:11                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 21:31                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 10:40                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 17:28                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-17 19:49                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:21                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 16:20                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20 16:27                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-19 17:33                   ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-16 20:25               ` Tim Cross
2023-01-17  9:07                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 15:24             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:07                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 10:43                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 14:37                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 20:43         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 11:25           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 15:19             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:38               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16  5:01     ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 12:31       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 20:32         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-16 20:51           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-17  9:12             ` [FR] Allow BC years in timestamps (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-13 19:06 ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Jean Louis
2023-01-14  7:12   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14  9:32     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 11:08       ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 11:35         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:00           ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 12:16             ` [FR] Allow end date and max repeat count for timestamps with repeaters (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15  1:09               ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-15 13:45                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 23:49                   ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-15 23:53                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-16 13:01                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:19             ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:21               ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 12:31                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:30       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 14:09         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 14:38           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 14:48             ` tomas
2023-01-14 15:05               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 16:50                 ` tomas
2023-01-14 17:06                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 17:13                     ` tomas
2023-01-15 19:54                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 21:52                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 13:52                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 14:34                         ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-15 20:03                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 19:52                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:11                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 20:56                   ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 20:24                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15  4:37                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15  5:03                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 20:28                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:17                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:55       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 13:50         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 16:50           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 20:30             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15  4:00               ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15  7:53                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 19:26                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:20                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 14:00                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 13:08     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 16:58       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 19:43         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15  6:37           ` tomas
2023-01-15 14:07           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 20:43             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-16  5:20               ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 13:29                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 17:30                   ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 17:53                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 13:27               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 19:14           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16  4:20             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 19:12         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14  5:14 ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-14  5:51   ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-14  6:40     ` tomas
2023-01-26 15:24     ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-26 16:08       ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] Fraga, Eric
2023-01-26 16:28         ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-26 23:40       ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Tom Gillespie
2023-01-30 10:13         ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ; ] " Greg Minshall
2023-01-30 13:05         ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] " Ihor Radchenko
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-01-15 19:16 [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-28  6:26 Max Nikulin

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