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[220.235.140.148]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t19-20020a1709028c9300b001745662d568sm2159369plo.278.2023.01.20.15.12.32 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:12:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <63cb1fe2.170a0220.c7760.43d9@mx.google.com> X-Google-Original-Message-ID: --text follows this line-- References: <63c66048.630a0220.427bf.a5f6@mx.google.com> <87r0vtiks0.fsf@localhost> <63c671c0.a70a0220.61aa5.56b8@mx.google.com> <87fsc88aq9.fsf@localhost> <63c7dd3d.170a0220.6b4d6.f84f@mx.google.com> <877cxk6oeu.fsf@localhost> <63c86454.170a0220.80970.652d@mx.google.com> <63c8f5a6.170a0220.ea8cf.7f96@mx.google.com> <63c9b654.170a0220.d82d2.4254@mx.google.com> <63ca3229.170a0220.a0833.5667@mx.google.com> <63ca4dc3.a70a0220.858e2.96f8@mx.google.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.9.16; emacs 29.0.60 From: Tim Cross To: Max Nikulin Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:56:06 +1100 In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1033; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1033.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674256416; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=tEst7d1BtxA1+S2kmWqkytsZzSB+VMWXsDTt+uRHC5khFwSlb93EmJKPXxkz/6ejGtYA2M qNUs5qC+0oYkU2AHDiKFXuVtDvJqchIsqOUIxhtKNNtm4n0JWIC0eNZH96ZysX9EWCUQP4 rDmdVHTD/TI+tt5WbzUGW1+HmpxtT5OEtcCnQ08bM4g3s1z+WAC5rdLI/Pcp0Rp+gx5khp 7hyvEp5U0eg3fkSelgjktihOTeL0rshnR95izasosJFOQAzWjdUXdZRT5MdWeVU4gZtBFp cMg+1H0QyqOjlVudk+v2eI5vbDVNb0oqwycEN/WQs1+0S6FUpl1A6ArjjHrwzw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Trwb6ol6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674256416; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=x1noCdVNaqsg7sFYJ2OElPkJa37CHYpf1+VrAsNqIyk=; b=AGQ3kdiFbRDlsZDLRTjjX8CRsjxBARZ09z4qPjGSk8/rm+OhLluKesG8+7qn1qmo3m6eqo F20swISEhc+gbeqGhoc6UqMaj9Ec5e7QA2AjpA9L4sPSKoql7gXm5imuQ99qWhJGTJLa9v ENxdifBeslochTcnZzLOYziXb8keZu8Prn1ugfEwTd0YKQfykkFTIrRYG1q+y7c3xnEkTY 2eZsO6L3LxIjmNmbLjytr2SSykDRjlY2nhn0JjwocXwVWdaQaGMo9XGZDvw2LxVZaLatgq TxP6nSsNu8pj9LtadKMpCfa2rh8bCZqfeGg11zSq9cZA75DgfN/+0VlWlpl6Uw== X-Spam-Score: -6.27 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 76D89369B6 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Trwb6ol6; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.27 X-TUID: MA6Nb+LyapGr Max Nikulin writes: > On 20/01/2023 15:11, Tim Cross wrote: >> Max Nikulin writes: >> >>> Tim, I am trying to say that any meeting either face to face or on-line may be associated >>> with arbitrary primary timezone. >> and what you are saying is helpful how? In what way does what you are >> sayhing help address my use case? > > Tim, are you trying to convince me that for Org it is enough to have timestamps either as > local time <2023-02-20 15:00> or as UTC something like <2023-02-20 05:00Z> and ability to > specify arbitrary timezone instead of UTC is redundant? > No. I have never stated anything like that. > I believe that in the case of support of optional arbitrary timezone in Org files there is > no point of distinction between you cases when all participants meet face to face > (<2023-02-20 15:00> or <2023-02-20 15:00@Australia/Sydney>) or it is online meeting > scheduled as <2023-02-20 09:00@Etc/UTC>. That is all I've been saying! For meetings where everyone is in same time zone, just use either OR > and for meetings where there are participants from different time zones, use . That simple. All that remains is to figure out the best interface to make it easy for the user to have the correct timestamp for the correct meeting type. > >>> UI might offer you to choose time in your timezone and to select another timezone for >>> storage. For your convenience it still may be presented to you in your local timezone even >>> it is stored in UTC or some other one. >> and I have said as much. So, how exactly is your contribution assisting >> with the use case I've outlined? > > I had a hope to assure you that unifying the cases you are considering as distinct should > not make user experience worse. > > Local event and UTC is meaningful for UI to enter or adjust timestamp where such cases > should be easier to select than arbitrary timezone. For parsing, generating agenda, or > export a more abstract model can be used. I really don't understand your continued reference to 'arbitrary timezone' or how it is relevant. I also am not clear what you mean by 'unifying the cases'. If you mean handling the two different cases in the same UI, that is exactly what I've been suggesting. If you mean using the same time zone for both cases, I don't see how that could possibly work and if you mean something else, I don't understand. My position is very simple and very specific. Either use no TZ info or local TZ spec for meetings where all participants are in the same TZ and ust UTC where you have participants from different TZs. Note that htis says nothing about how the timestamp is displayed (I would argue for user's local time using an overlay or similar, like we do for links and markup) and it says nothing about how the other participants record the meeting (it is specific to the org user) and it says nothing about other users for timestamps - only in reference to scheduled events.