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From: Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com>
To: Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com>, Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu>
Cc: Emacs Org mode mailing list <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: did behaviour of RET change again?
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 00:29:15 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <2bcc0b31-c535-e2d9-9187-440f8b05a37d@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+G3_PNAUFu31Ahkq+=VQ05RzmK5E1pq7xomVe=6fidAx3jAUw@mail.gmail.com>

For me, I don't like my paragraphs indented. That just adds more speech 
from Emacspeak. I'm glad y'all talked about which setting does this so I 
can turn it off.. I mean, I don't know of any reason why paragraphs 
should be indented, but that's just my opinion. Maybe visual appeal, 
looking more like a word processor?

On 12/24/20 12:35 AM, Tom Gillespie wrote:
>> possibly i'm misunderstanding, but my sense is that the value of org
>> adapt indentation doesn't change what you might actually find ("in a
>> .org file in the wild").  so, whatever its value, your grammar would
>> have to deal with all cases?
> Yep, we can't magically change all the files out in the wild.
> Until I wrote this email out I agreed about the grammar too, but
> as it turns out I think there might be a compromise, which is that
> a grammar could be allowed to interpret certain types of lines
> with leading whitespace as if they were paragraph lines instead of
> as say, the start of an org-babel block. That way an interoperable
> org spec could be made simpler without preventing e.g. the elisp
> implementation from going above and beyond the spect to provide
> support for leading whitespace.
>
> My interest in the org-adapt-indentation setting is to try to align what
> most users are doing out in the wild with a representation for their
> org files that is less ambiguous and more performant (among other
> things).
>
> If I had to guess I would say that most new org files have leading
> whitespace precisely because org-adapt-indentation is set to t by
> default. Getting users to transition their files requires an incentive,
> and some users may find that they use org in such a way that they
> don't need to.
>
> While writing this email I thought of a reasonable incentive, which is
> that only files without leading significant whitespace (i.e. that look like
> those that are authored with org-adapt-indentation nil) have specified
> behavior for things like org-babel blocks. This would allow best effort
> by the elisp org-mode implementation to allow users who don't care
> about interoperability to continue as they have been doing, while also
> providing clear guidance for what users must do if they want
> consistent behavior on other tools that consume org formatted files.
> This is critical for keeping the org spec from becoming overly complex.
>
> The first step would thus be to reduce the rate at which new org files
> are created with leading whitespace by changing org-adapt-indentation
> to be nil by default.
>
> The second step would be to give users a clear way forward to safely
> normalizing their files. Org has a habit of reindenting subsets of files
> from time to time, but in general doing a complete switch to have no
> significant whitespace can be risky.
>
> The third step would be to let the incentives and needs of users
> play out over time, but users would generally probably be happier
> because by default they would be in the "my files are portable and
> generally interpretable without me having to do any additional work"
> state instead of the "why did no one tell me the defaults weren't
> portable" state.
>
>> or, and maybe this would make sense, you'd define an "interoperability"
>> form of .org, that all "wild" .org files could be (programmatically)
>> converted into, without losing any of their semantics?
> Yep exactly. For many use cases the cost of stripping the whitespace
> that corresponds to heading level is not unreasonable, e.g. since it
> would only have to be done once. However, if you are writing another
> org implementation, then every single time you parse a heading and
> its accompanying section you have to strip the whitespace, and that
> will happen every single time a user modifies the file, which starts to
> get expensive. Alternately you could implement it so that everything
> is stripped once and then you keep a version in memory that the user
> edits which doesn't have leading whitespace, but then every time you
> save you have to splice it all back in to preserve the roundtrip.
>
> This also doesn't even begin to deal with the fact that users can create
> malformed org files that can have lines that are less than the expected
> significant indentation. This becomes a complete nightmare when trying
> to come up with some rational way of dealing with org babel blocks for
> languages like python where there is significant whitespace.
>
> Consider the horror if trying to specify the correct behavior in a situation
> like this. Better just to declare it a malformed babel block and move on.
> Unfortunately you can't always detect that such things are malformed
> during the first pass of parsing because you have to count the number of
> spaces.
>
> #+begin_src org
> # -*- org-adapt-indentation: t -*-
> ,*** Oh No
>      ,#+begin_src python
>    class What:
>        have = 'you'
>        done = 'now'
> ,#+end_src
> #+end_src
>
> In order to ensure that org files can be reliably interpreted this either
> means that the specification for handling cases like this becomes
> extremely complex, or the spec can say "you can have leading
> whitespace, but nasal demons may come for you, there is only
> specified behavior if you do not have leading whitespace."
>
> Having unspecified behavior in cases like that would mean that an
> implementation could be fully compliant if it were to treat any
> #+begin_src lang line that started with whitespace as if it were
> a paragraph instead of a babel block. I suspect that this will be
> the best way forward.
>
>> (anyway, good luck with that, even with any significant subset of that!)
> Thanks, and thanks for the inspiration!
> Tom
>


      reply	other threads:[~2020-12-25  6:30 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 17+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-12-18 13:06 Eric S Fraga
2020-12-18 14:42 ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-12-18 14:59   ` Eric S Fraga
2020-12-19  4:21     ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-12-18 18:33 ` Berry, Charles via General discussions about Org-mode.
2020-12-20 17:25 ` Bastien
2020-12-20 18:56   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-12-21  8:46   ` Eric S Fraga
2020-12-21 10:25   ` Eric S Fraga
2020-12-21 11:34   ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-12-22 15:36   ` Kyle Meyer
2020-12-22 23:15     ` Samuel Wales
2020-12-22 23:25       ` Samuel Wales
2020-12-23 23:09         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-12-24  3:34           ` Greg Minshall
2020-12-24  6:35             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-12-25  6:29               ` Devin Prater [this message]

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