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* Org-mode and taskpaper
@ 2008-04-01  7:26 Carsten Dominik
  2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2008-04-01  7:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode Mailinglist


Dear all,

the recent discussion about Taskpaper in the thread started
by Clint Laskowski has made me realize how much we have lost
out way with Org-mode.  Org-mode was once a compact and
easy tool just like taskpaper.  In fact, looking at the
features of taskpaper, one might think that they had an older
version of Org-mode as model and goal of their development.

But in the meantime, mostly due to a mountain of demands
from this group, it has become so bloated with mostly
useless features, that all but the most geeky users are
totally confused by this.

Reading this thread has really cost me a lot of sleep, but
I have now come to the conclusion that we need to turn
the tide and downscope Org-mode significantly.  Luckily
I have recently put much effort into splitting org.el
into a number of separate files with separate features.
This allows us a very simple and straight-forward path
for this down-scoping effort.  I can simply try to remove
one of these separate files after the other and then see
how much complaining I will get for this.  In this way,
we can make this process community-based, but I will
need you to frequently update org-mode and to give me
feedback during the process.

Those of you who actively follow the git repository
might have noticed that this morning I have started
by removing org-table.el, the file containing the
table editor.  Unfortunately this also means that the
clocktable support no longer works, but I have always
considered this as a sickening feature anyway, which
tries to streamline our life, but in fact only leads to
more work, and to more time taken away from spending with
partners, kids and friends.

I hope that you can all agree with my conclusion.  If not,
than I am confident that with time you will realize
just how important today's decision was.

- Carsten

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
    2008-04-01  7:26 Org-mode and taskpaper Carsten Dominik
  @ 2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
    2008-04-01  8:31   ` Giovanni Ridolfi
    2008-04-02  9:25   ` Leo
    2008-04-01  8:30 ` Uwe Jochum
                     ` (3 subsequent siblings)
    4 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
  From: Russell Adams @ 2008-04-01  8:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: emacs-orgmode
  
  On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 09:26:49AM +0200, Carsten Dominik wrote:
  > 
  > Dear all,
  > 
  > the recent discussion about Taskpaper in the thread started
  > by Clint Laskowski has made me realize how much we have lost
  > out way with Org-mode.  Org-mode was once a compact and
  > easy tool just like taskpaper.  In fact, looking at the
  > features of taskpaper, one might think that they had an older
  > version of Org-mode as model and goal of their development.
  > 
  > But in the meantime, mostly due to a mountain of demands
  > from this group, it has become so bloated with mostly
  > useless features, that all but the most geeky users are
  > totally confused by this.
  > 
  > Reading this thread has really cost me a lot of sleep, but
  > I have now come to the conclusion that we need to turn
  > the tide and downscope Org-mode significantly.  Luckily
  > I have recently put much effort into splitting org.el
  > into a number of separate files with separate features.
  > This allows us a very simple and straight-forward path
  > for this down-scoping effort.  I can simply try to remove
  > one of these separate files after the other and then see
  > how much complaining I will get for this.  In this way,
  > we can make this process community-based, but I will
  > need you to frequently update org-mode and to give me
  > feedback during the process.
  > 
  > Those of you who actively follow the git repository
  > might have noticed that this morning I have started
  > by removing org-table.el, the file containing the
  > table editor.  Unfortunately this also means that the
  > clocktable support no longer works, but I have always
  > considered this as a sickening feature anyway, which
  > tries to streamline our life, but in fact only leads to
  > more work, and to more time taken away from spending with
  > partners, kids and friends.
  > 
  > I hope that you can all agree with my conclusion.  If not,
  > than I am confident that with time you will realize
  > just how important today's decision was.
  > 
  > - Carsten
  > 
  
  Carsten,
  
  I certainly agree that refactoring the code to move blocks of
  functionality into separate files makes perfect sense. Perhaps some of
  the functions could be turned into "plugins" using appropriate hooks.
  
  All successful projects suffer from feature creep. My opinion would be
  that when drawing a line for the "core" feature set, ensure that any
  existing features can continue to exist as a plugin, optionally
  maintained separately. This can reduce the complexity and learning
  curve for the core, while allowing us complexity junkies to tinker.
  
  As to tables, I would miss them dearly. They aren't immediately
  related to folding outlines or schedules, but I frequently use short
  tables for summing information and the exported view is nice.
  
  Perhaps you could post a list of the features you consider core, and
  what items border on too complex that you want to trim. I think it
  would make for interesting discussion.
  
  Thanks.
  
  
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------
  Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
  
  PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/
  
  Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
  
  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
      2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
    @ 2008-04-01  8:31   ` Giovanni Ridolfi
      2008-04-02  9:45     ` Bastien
      2008-04-02  9:25   ` Leo
      1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
    From: Giovanni Ridolfi @ 2008-04-01  8:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode
    
    
    --- Russell Adams <RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.Com> ha
    scritto:
    
    > On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 09:26:49AM +0200, Carsten
    > Dominik wrote:
    
    > > Org-mode was once a
    > compact and
    > > easy tool just like taskpaper.  
    [...]
    > > I have now come to the conclusion that we need to
    > turn
    > > the tide and downscope Org-mode significantly. 
    [...]
    > > This allows us a very simple and straight-forward
    > path
    > > for this down-scoping effort.  I can simply try to
    > remove
    > > one of these separate files after the other and
    > then see
    > > how much complaining I will get for this.  In this
    > way,
    > > we can make this process community-based, but I
    > will
    > > need you to frequently update org-mode and to give
    > me
    > > feedback during the process.
    > > 
    
    Well, we can also tell you what are the features of
    Org-Mode that we use more frequently so that you can 
    feel how Org-Mode is used.
    
    E.g., for me:
    Outline, Properties, Clocking time, agenda, links,
    export , TODO 
    I *can't* live without them. 
    
    To this regard I suggest that somebody 
    (e.g. Charles, would you?) can set up a survey,
    with the features and the frequency we use it e.g.:
    
    Feature                | %use
    ------------------------------
    Outline                | 100%
    built-in-table-editor  |   1%
    
    the community may "vote" and you can have an idea of
    what we consider the most useful features.
    
    > My opinion would be
    > that when drawing a line for the "core" feature set,
    > ensure that any
    > existing features can continue to exist as a plugin,
    > optionally
    > maintained separately. 
    
    + 1 ! 
    we already have worg ( http://www.legito.net/worg/ )
    ;-)
    
    Again, Carsten,  thanks for Org-Mode,
    
    cheers,
    
    Giovanni
    
    
          ___________________________________ 
    Scopri il Blog di Yahoo! Mail: trucchi, novità, consigli... e la tua opinione!
    http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog/
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

  • • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
        2008-04-01  8:31   ` Giovanni Ridolfi
      @ 2008-04-02  9:45     ` Bastien
        0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
      From: Bastien @ 2008-04-02  9:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: emacs-orgmode
      
      Giovanni Ridolfi <giovanni.ridolfi@yahoo.it> writes:
      
      > Well, we can also tell you what are the features of
      > Org-Mode that we use more frequently so that you can 
      > feel how Org-Mode is used.
      
      Not sure this would be really useful, but I guess many people would be
      curious about the result.
      
      I will set up such a survey next week.
      
      I'm not sure about requiring people to estimate usage frequencies.  
      A simple ordered list of features (most used coming first) would be
      simpler and efficient enough, no?
      
      Giovanni, would you help me by preparing the list of features that we
      might ask the user about?
      
      Thanks!
      
      -- 
      Bastien
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

  • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
      2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
      2008-04-01  8:31   ` Giovanni Ridolfi
    @ 2008-04-02  9:25   ` Leo
      2008-04-07 15:55     ` Carsten Dominik
      1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
    From: Leo @ 2008-04-02  9:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode
    
    On 2008-04-01 09:03 +0100, Russell Adams wrote:
    > As to tables, I would miss them dearly. They aren't immediately
    > related to folding outlines or schedules, but I frequently use short
    > tables for summing information and the exported view is nice.
    
    The `table' functionality can turn into a new spread sheet package for
    Emacs.
    
    -- 
    .:  Leo  :.  [ sdl.web AT gmail.com ]  .:  [ GPG Key: 9283AA3F ]  :.
    
              Use the best OS -- http://www.fedoraproject.org/
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

  • • * Re: Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
        2008-04-02  9:25   ` Leo
      @ 2008-04-07 15:55     ` Carsten Dominik
        0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
      From: Carsten Dominik @ 2008-04-07 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: Leo; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
      
      
      On Apr 2, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Leo wrote:
      
      > On 2008-04-01 09:03 +0100, Russell Adams wrote:
      >> As to tables, I would miss them dearly. They aren't immediately
      >> related to folding outlines or schedules, but I frequently use short
      >> tables for summing information and the exported view is nice.
      >
      > The `table' functionality can turn into a new spread sheet package for
      > Emacs.
      
      Yes, it could, but the really tight integration with org-mode
      would be a bit harder to achieve with an external package.
      So this will stay in.  You do know that orgtbl-mode is available
      to get the table editor into other modes?
      
      - Carsten
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
    2008-04-01  7:26 Org-mode and taskpaper Carsten Dominik
    2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
  @ 2008-04-01  8:30 ` Uwe Jochum
    2008-04-01  9:03 ` Tassilo Horn
                     ` (2 subsequent siblings)
    4 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
  From: Uwe Jochum @ 2008-04-01  8:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: emacs-orgmode
  
  Carsten,
  
  Message from Apr 01 2008 (09:26):
  > Reading this thread has really cost me a lot of sleep, but
  > I have now come to the conclusion that we need to turn
  > the tide and downscope Org-mode significantly.
  
  this is what I wrote to you some months ago. Some say it is a symbol of
  success when a piece of software becomes bigger and bigger because of
  endlessly incoming feature requests; but I, personally, am inclined to
  think that only a small portion of people will use all those very
  special features, while more and more people will be frightened off. So
  was I, after having used Orgmode for many, many months --- I decided to
  give "Thinking Rock" a try, which is easy to use, integrates with
  calendar software and is multi platform software (Java). I must confess
  this, and I must confess also that I came back to Orgmode after three
  months, because Orgmode has a much faster response time, offers
  wonderful features (of which I only use a small part) and can be adapted
  to what I want. To have this core functionality (an outliner and a tool
  for task management, be it GTD or not) would be perfect and attractive
  enough for those being non-programmers and non-geeks, as I am.
  
  So, in short: I understand your conclusion very well, I share your
  premises, and I support your decision!
  
  Uwe
  
  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
    2008-04-01  7:26 Org-mode and taskpaper Carsten Dominik
    2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
    2008-04-01  8:30 ` Uwe Jochum
  @ 2008-04-01  9:03 ` Tassilo Horn
    2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
    2008-04-01 11:20 ` Clint Laskowski
    4 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
  From: Tassilo Horn @ 2008-04-01  9:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: emacs-orgmode
  
  Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:
  
  Hi Carsten,
  
  > I hope that you can all agree with my conclusion.  If not, than I am
  > confident that with time you will realize just how important today's
  > decision was.
  
  I do agree with you.  I only use a tiny subset of org's features:
  Outlining, TODOs, Dates, some hyperlinks, the remember integration for
  quick notes and tables.  In fact, I converted all the few spreadsheet
  tables I use to org-mode, because it offered everything I need and emacs
  is always open.
  
  So at least for me loosing the table editor would be sad.
  
  I would suggest another refactoring:
  
    - Make a subset of org the core which includes everything anybody
      uses, e.g. the outlining, TODOs, dates, links...
  
    - Everything else comes as plugin a user has to explicitly require in
      his ~/.emacs.
  
    - Use different keys for the plugins.  For example each plugin could
      have a customizable prefix for all its commands.
  
  I think much of org's complexity comes from the fact, that you tried to
  use only very few key bindings to DTRT.  A bit exaggerated one could say
  org is fully controllable with C-c C-c.
  
  Bye,
  Tassilo
  
  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• * RE: Org-mode and taskpaper
    2008-04-01  7:26 Org-mode and taskpaper Carsten Dominik
                     ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
    2008-04-01  9:03 ` Tassilo Horn
  @ 2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
    2008-04-01  9:40   ` Karsten Heymann
                       ` (2 more replies)
    2008-04-01 11:20 ` Clint Laskowski
    4 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread
  From: Egli Christian (KIRO 433) @ 2008-04-01  9:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: emacs-orgmode Mailinglist
  
  
  > the recent discussion about Taskpaper in the thread started
  > by Clint Laskowski has made me realize how much we have lost
  > out way with Org-mode.  Org-mode was once a compact and
  > easy tool just like taskpaper.  In fact, looking at the
  > features of taskpaper, one might think that they had an older
  > version of Org-mode as model and goal of their development.
  
  Hm, reading all the answers to this aprils fools gets me a bit worried.
  Nobody seems to see the joke and everybody seems to agree that org-mode
  is too bloated. 
  
  The good thing is that all those features do not get in your way and you
  can start using org-mode as a simple outliner and gradualy move up to
  use it for task management, notes taking, website publishing, etc to
  finally reach eternal bliss when your entire live is one with org-mode.
  
  Ha, I for one need more features in org-mode. I have M-x
  org-organize-my-live implemented in my secret git branch. Unfortunatelly
  I'm still waiting for my employer disclaimer to be signed (can you
  believe it). So maybe my code will be ready for inclusion by next April
  1st.
  
  Christian
  
  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
      2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
    @ 2008-04-01  9:40   ` Karsten Heymann
      2008-04-01  9:55   ` Bastien Guerry
      2008-04-01  9:55   ` Org-mode and taskpaper Uwe Jochum
      2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
    From: Karsten Heymann @ 2008-04-01  9:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode Mailinglist
    
    "Egli Christian (KIRO 433)" <christian.egli@credit-suisse.com> writes:
    >> the recent discussion about Taskpaper in the thread started by
    >> Clint Laskowski has made me realize how much we have lost out way
    >> with Org-mode.  Org-mode was once a compact and easy tool just like
    >> taskpaper.  In fact, looking at the features of taskpaper, one
    >> might think that they had an older version of Org-mode as model and
    >> goal of their development.
    >
    > Hm, reading all the answers to this aprils fools gets me a bit
    > worried. Nobody seems to see the joke and everybody seems to agree
    > that org-mode is too bloated.
    
    Now you spoiled it :-)
    
    Yours,
    Karsten
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

  • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
      2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
      2008-04-01  9:40   ` Karsten Heymann
    @ 2008-04-01  9:55   ` Bastien Guerry
      2008-04-01 11:36     ` tutorial: [was: Re: Org-mode and taskpaper] Giovanni Ridolfi
      2008-04-01  9:55   ` Org-mode and taskpaper Uwe Jochum
      2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
    From: Bastien Guerry @ 2008-04-01  9:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode
    
    "Egli Christian (KIRO 433)" <christian.egli@credit-suisse.com> writes:
    
    > Hm, reading all the answers to this aprils fools gets me a bit
    > worried.  Nobody seems to see the joke and everybody seems to agree
    > that org-mode is too bloated.
    
    :)
    
    I know TaskPaper for quite a long time.  A Mac-friend of mine sent me
    the link because he knew I was hooked to Org.  And then we started to
    discuss about TaskPaper/Org.  Not really a flame war -- but still.
    
    The interesting thing is that this chat inevitably took the road to the
    nano/Emacs topic (yes, hot.)  He thinks Emacs is wrong because its UI
    doesn't let newcomers to save a file.  I think Emacs is Emacs and people
    coming to it do not only want to try another editor, they want Emacs.
    He thinks that whatever people want, Emacs is just a failure in terms of
    design.  I think people not using Emacs shouldn't feel so strong about
    telling it's crap.  Especially those using nano :)
    
    Etc. Etc.
    
    While thinking back about this discussion drift from the TaskPaper/Org
    topic to the nano/Emacs one, here's what come to my mind: what would be
    Emacs without its tutorial?  A closed door.
    
    So I believe this would be a *huge* benefit for Org to have its own
    tutorial.  Because yes, beginners might be frightened by the size of 
    the manual, by the simple act of asking something on this list, or by
    spending time looking for the right information on Org websites.
    
    > The good thing is that all those features do not get in your way and
    > you can start using org-mode as a simple outliner and gradualy move up
    > to use it for task management, notes taking, website publishing, etc
    > to finally reach eternal bliss when your entire live is one with
    > org-mode.
    
    Exactly.  And this would be even more true with a simple, stable
    tutorial in Org!
    
    -- 
    Bastien
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

  • • * tutorial: [was: Re: Org-mode and taskpaper]
        2008-04-01  9:55   ` Bastien Guerry
      @ 2008-04-01 11:36     ` Giovanni Ridolfi
        2008-04-02  9:45       ` tutorial: Bastien
        0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
      From: Giovanni Ridolfi @ 2008-04-01 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: emacs-orgmode
      
      --- Bastien Guerry <bzg@altern.org> ha scritto:
      > 
      > what would be
      > Emacs without its tutorial?  A closed door.
      > 
      > So I believe this would be a *huge* benefit for Org
      > to have its own tutorial.  
      
      Is it an april fool?  <[°]=,=< 
      Let's assume it isn't.
      
      I disagree since I belive the manual is already 
      written as a tutorial. Let's surf the TOC (Table of 
      Content):
      
      + It begins with the introduction, the basic .emacs   
        lines to use Org-Mode
      + then it describes the use of Org-Mode as outline
      + then tables 
      + then hyperlinks
      + TODO
      + tags
      ....
      
      I think that a newbie is guided from the easy use to 
      exploitation of the more advanced features of
      Org-Mode:
      properties, finer agenda views etc...
      
      Moreover "The OrgMode tutorial by David O'Toole"
      on the  worg site is not enough? 
      
      > Because yes, beginners might be frightened 
      > by the size of 
      > the manual, 
       
       (-:   Newbies may only be   /lazy/ and do not   :-)
       (-:   want to spend time in reading the manual   :-)
      
      > by the simple act of asking something on
      > this list, 
       
          (-:   So what? Let them grew up,       :-)
           :-)  become brave and ask questions!  :-)
      
      I mean, I personally asked some _really_ silly 
      questions here: e.g. I sought for help regarding a
      bug,
       but the problem was that *I* wrote badly  the 
      "#+LINK: " line and  Carsten replied very promptly 
      and extremly kindly.
      
      I think that everybody in this list is really gentle,
      helpful,  constructive, handy, supportive.
       
      > or by
      > spending time looking for the right information on
      > Org websites.
      
      Perhaps we (not so newbie users) shall 
      + try to organise the various sorces of documentation
        EmacsWiki, orgmode.org, worg ...
        in a more clear way 
      + fill the page of the tutorials at the worg site
      
      On the other hand if somebzg ;) will write a tutorial
      as clear, readable and enlightning, like you did with 
      column views [terrific!], I will suggest every 
      newbie to read it.
      
      Cheers,
      Giovanni
      
      
      
            ___________________________________ 
      Scopri il Blog di Yahoo! Mail: trucchi, novità,
      consigli... e la tua opinione!
      http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog/
      
      
            ___________________________________ 
      Scopri il Blog di Yahoo! Mail: trucchi, novità, consigli... e la tua opinione!
      http://www.ymailblogit.com/blog/
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

    • • * Re: tutorial:
          2008-04-01 11:36     ` tutorial: [was: Re: Org-mode and taskpaper] Giovanni Ridolfi
        @ 2008-04-02  9:45       ` Bastien
          0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
        From: Bastien @ 2008-04-02  9:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: emacs-orgmode
        
        Giovanni Ridolfi <giovanni.ridolfi@yahoo.it> writes:
        
        >> So I believe this would be a *huge* benefit for Org
        >> to have its own tutorial.  
        >
        > Is it an april fool?  <[°]=,=< 
        > Let's assume it isn't.
        
        Well, the april fool would have sounded like: "Hey guys!  The new Org
        exporter is finally out!  Download it here => XXX"
        
        > Moreover "The OrgMode tutorial by David O'Toole"
        > on the  worg site is not enough? 
        
        It is good, but something more incremental could be done.  
        
        > + fill the page of the tutorials at the worg site
        
        Yes, go ahead :)
        
        > On the other hand if somebzg ;) will write a tutorial
        > as clear, readable and enlightning, like you did with 
        > column views [terrific!], I will suggest every 
        > newbie to read it.
        
        If fact, I might start something on Worg at some point.  If people and
        Carsten find this useful, this could go official at some point.
        
        Best,
        
        -- 
        Bastien
        
        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

  • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
      2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
      2008-04-01  9:40   ` Karsten Heymann
      2008-04-01  9:55   ` Bastien Guerry
    @ 2008-04-01  9:55   ` Uwe Jochum
      2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
    From: Uwe Jochum @ 2008-04-01  9:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode
    
    Hm,
    
    Message from Apr 01 2008 (11:18):
    > Hm, reading all the answers to this aprils fools gets me a bit worried.
    > Nobody seems to see the joke and everybody seems to agree that org-mode
    > is too bloated. 
    
    sometimes the joke reveals a truth. Sometimes only the reflection of a
    truth. Let's wait until next year and see if it's a truth or only its
    reflection.
    
    Uwe
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
    2008-04-01  7:26 Org-mode and taskpaper Carsten Dominik
                     ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
    2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
  @ 2008-04-01 11:20 ` Clint Laskowski
    2008-04-01 15:28   ` Eddward DeVilla
    4 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
  From: Clint Laskowski @ 2008-04-01 11:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Mailinglist
  
  My thoughtful suggestion has become the brunt of an April Fool's Joke?
  I have half a mind to report you all to the Productivity Police! Fine!
  I'm going back to paper and pencil for to-do lists, and mail, too!
  We'll see how you like that!
  
  :-)
  
  On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
  >
  >  Dear all,
  >
  >  the recent discussion about Taskpaper in the thread started
  >  by Clint Laskowski has made me realize how much we have lost
  >  out way with Org-mode.  Org-mode was once a compact and
  >  easy tool just like taskpaper.  In fact, looking at the
  >  features of taskpaper, one might think that they had an older
  >  version of Org-mode as model and goal of their development.
  >
  >  But in the meantime, mostly due to a mountain of demands
  >  from this group, it has become so bloated with mostly
  >  useless features, that all but the most geeky users are
  >  totally confused by this.
  >
  >  Reading this thread has really cost me a lot of sleep, but
  >  I have now come to the conclusion that we need to turn
  >  the tide and downscope Org-mode significantly.  Luckily
  >  I have recently put much effort into splitting org.el
  >  into a number of separate files with separate features.
  >  This allows us a very simple and straight-forward path
  >  for this down-scoping effort.  I can simply try to remove
  >  one of these separate files after the other and then see
  >  how much complaining I will get for this.  In this way,
  >  we can make this process community-based, but I will
  >  need you to frequently update org-mode and to give me
  >  feedback during the process.
  >
  >  Those of you who actively follow the git repository
  >  might have noticed that this morning I have started
  >  by removing org-table.el, the file containing the
  >  table editor.  Unfortunately this also means that the
  >  clocktable support no longer works, but I have always
  >  considered this as a sickening feature anyway, which
  >  tries to streamline our life, but in fact only leads to
  >  more work, and to more time taken away from spending with
  >  partners, kids and friends.
  >
  >  I hope that you can all agree with my conclusion.  If not,
  >  than I am confident that with time you will realize
  >  just how important today's decision was.
  >
  >  - Carsten
  >
  >
  >  _______________________________________________
  >  Emacs-orgmode mailing list
  >  Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
  >  Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
  >  http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
  >
  
  
  
  -- 
  
  -- Clint
  
  Clint Laskowski, CISSP
  clint.laskowski@gmail.com
  
  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

• • * Re: Org-mode and taskpaper
      2008-04-01 11:20 ` Clint Laskowski
    @ 2008-04-01 15:28   ` Eddward DeVilla
      0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
    From: Eddward DeVilla @ 2008-04-01 15:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: clint.laskowski; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Mailinglist
    
    On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 6:20 AM, Clint Laskowski
    <clint.laskowski@gmail.com> wrote:
    > My thoughtful suggestion has become the brunt of an April Fool's Joke?
    >  I have half a mind to report you all to the Productivity Police! Fine!
    >  I'm going back to paper and pencil for to-do lists, and mail, too!
    >  We'll see how you like that!
    
    Given the coming changes to Org-mode, that sounds pretty good
    actually.  Is table editing very difficult with that scheme?
    
    Edd
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2008-04-07 16:13 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 16+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-04-01  7:26 Org-mode and taskpaper Carsten Dominik
2008-04-01  8:03 ` Russell Adams
2008-04-01  8:31   ` Giovanni Ridolfi
2008-04-02  9:45     ` Bastien
2008-04-02  9:25   ` Leo
2008-04-07 15:55     ` Carsten Dominik
2008-04-01  8:30 ` Uwe Jochum
2008-04-01  9:03 ` Tassilo Horn
2008-04-01  9:18 ` Egli Christian (KIRO 433)
2008-04-01  9:40   ` Karsten Heymann
2008-04-01  9:55   ` Bastien Guerry
2008-04-01 11:36     ` tutorial: [was: Re: Org-mode and taskpaper] Giovanni Ridolfi
2008-04-02  9:45       ` tutorial: Bastien
2008-04-01  9:55   ` Org-mode and taskpaper Uwe Jochum
2008-04-01 11:20 ` Clint Laskowski
2008-04-01 15:28   ` Eddward DeVilla

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